rudder discussions

[Jim Wiles]

Dave,
Thanks for the tip on the reclamation stores. I'll make a mental note of that. There are three or so of these stores that I have visited in the past in Michigan, Fla., Alabama. Aa I recall I did have good luck there!
Jim

[Jim Wiles]

To Everyone interested in rudders,
We finally have all of our rudder materials and we are actually building a RUDDER! Really though, everything was fairly easy to find, was shipped fast, I drove after the mahogany, and really not badly priced. The bronze is really beautiful, the wood is really dense, solid and smells really good.
Will keep you posted and possibly post some pics.
Jim

[Jim Wiles]

The rudder is looking great. I had a custom milling company actually do the wooden rudder blades ( I made two for $190.)
They really fit the 1" shaft like a glove. Will post some pics soon
I took them with me to our marina to show my friends and they fell in love with them.

One question for the group: quite a few of my friends thought that I should somehow seal the new mahogany. What do you all think?
Thanks,
Jim

[Theis]

Absolutely you should seal it and seal it and seal it. Apply VERY liberally. The mahogany takes it like a sponge. Both Pettit and Interlux make a clear sealer tha soaks in. It is easy to apply and soaks right in. Use the sealer, not just a thinned down varnish.

Sealing is particularly true in fresh water, as I recall being told, because Mahogany does not have the resistance to rot as it does in salt water. Also, you don't want the additional weight of the waterlogged rudder draging down the stern.

[mrgnstrn]

Jim: what style of rudder did you go for? the original heart shaped, or the "Constellation" style shown in the lines in phantom?

Also, what method of attachment are you using? welded plate along the back of the shaft or the original edge-bolted style?

much grass.

[Bogle]

Hey, I have posted the question of coatings at

http://www.boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/...cgi?read=11364

My understanding of bouyancy of the rudder is that neutral bouyancy - watterlogged wood - is best. Therefore, I was not considering any coating other than the porous bottom paint.

The participants at the above forum were very helpful and knowledgeable regarding wood boat construction and my previous posting regarding species was invaluable.

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/U...?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008475

Now I just have to find the weekday-time to get to Condon's in White Plains to pick out the suitably-grained plank. Though they will ship, they would not guarantee they would be able to pick the "right" grain for my demanding project.

[Jim Wiles]

Hi everyone and thanks so much for your input. I built the original rudder shape which I have used for 25 years. We are using the continuous shaft from head to shoe and drilling 1/2" blind holes in shaft for five 3/8" bronze rods which will exit aft rudder. Should be very stout. Rods will be tig tacked to shaft following being screwed into the holes so that they cannot loosen. Lock nuts and suitable sized washers will be used on the rod ends. Will fair the aft rudder edge following the first season of immersion. Should fair very nicely.
Thanks for the web site dealing with toseal or not to seal.
Hope to shoot some digital pics today to post here.
Jim

p.s. Commanderpete's drawing and measurements of his old Commander rudder were right on the mark and helped me a great deal. I thank him so much for his time and effort.
I measured my bronze rudder shaft with a fish tape vicegripped to the top of the shaft and through the rudder tube and measured to the top of the bearing surface on the rudder shoe, and certainly added the length of the boss to the total.

[tcoolidge]

Finally got everything together and got the new rudder/shaft/shoe on the boat. Everything fit, it works wonderfully and I'm a happy camper.
Some observations from the project
1) Also had some keel heel disintegration once I got the old shoe off. Not as bad as Bill Hoover's but of the four ruddershoe bolts only two were anchored in something solid. Kind of scary and you can't tell unless you take the ruddershoe off. Might be worth considering as a potential maintenance problem.
2) The rudder shoe Fred Pomeranz built fit beautifully. It's a little wide at the front end (about 1/8" on either side on the front edge) but that was easy to fair out. Could also have ground down the excess without affecting the strength of the casting. It's substantial, considerably more so than what was on there.
3) The old shoe was silicone bronze. Having seen what happens to silicone bronze over time, I'm glad I went with manganese. The old shoe and shaft were so worn that the rudder shaft/shoe fitting was totally deformed. I also found that although the metal had a nice bronze color when I scraped it when I hit it with a hammer while driving the pins out it fractured because the metal was so crystallized. Once I had it off I could flex the sides of the shoe inward just by squeezing. Not my idea of solid. I'm also relatively certain the old shoe was not original. It had been amatuerishly faired with a filler that was easy to remove and when it was out it was easy to see where the original ruddershoe had been and much to my delight the new shoe fit there almost perfectly.
4) I went with a solid manganese shaft with five drift pins to attach the rudder to and this baby is also substantial. There is something to be said for knowing your rudder is a bit overbuilt. (if you're not a racer) Used a slightly different technique for the rudder boards- instead of using 2 2X10 mahogany planks I used 1X10's and face epoxied (and screwed) them together after I routed grooves in both sides to fit the drift pins. Didn't have the drilling equipment to drill true, accurate holes in the 2X and doing it this way worked well. Also figured that having opposing grains on either side would help lessen the tendency to warp. Will see how it worked next haulout.

After I got it together I took the boat for a spin around the harbor to make sure it worked then took off the next day for a three week trip up the east coast of Vancouver Island. Probably wasn't the smartest thing to take off with an untested rudder but I felt confident, knowing how much more sound the rudder assembly was than it had been, and I didn't have any problems, and ran into some serious wind and waves along the way. I must say it's a lot more fun using a rudder than installing one.

My thanks to everyone who offered help, advice, observations through the project. Your input was invaluable and it wouldn't have come out as well without it.

Happy sailing,
Tom
Tom

[ebb]

Congratulations Tom Tom,
Let me say this:
The first important thing is to get all your bronzes the same alloy.
I believe that will go a long way to keep corrosion at bay yOU HAVE DONE THAT WITH YOUR SHAFT AND SHOE..

The second important thing is that there is nothing wrong with silicon bronze, for the same reason as above. In fact there is LESS to leach out, in a hot marina say, than manganese. Besides I chose silicone. And a good reason for that is: the other components in the rudder: allthread. rod and bolts, even thruhulls are impossible to find in manganese.

Third, as you state in your post your FORMER bronze shoe was of an alloy that disintegrated, AND readers should respond to your graphic detail of the rudder shoe's FINAL DEMISE!

I don't believe you can assume the former DFO's rudder shoe was SILICON BRONZE! WHY do you think so???
IMCO the shoe was cast in NAVAL BRONZE, which is actually brass, which has enuf zinc in it to be a back up battery. What you describe is major dezincing, which could NOT happen to silicon bronze. Never use naval bronze. Simple statement. It is the truth.

In fact I think what you have witnessed here is an empiracal example of the WRONG alloy to use in a the Ariel rudder shoe, especialy if you have chosen a dissimular alloy for your rudder shaft.

Now, of course you have silicon bronze hiding in the blade of your restoration......we shall see, we shall see. Manganese is NOT the more noble bronze here! Silicon is! Even WINIARSKI can't deny that. Did you use m. bronze for the pins?
On 388 I used all s. bronze. Yet I got signs of a reaction when captured water passed thru the laminated the shoe is attached to and out a couple of the holes the pins were peened over on.

Manganese bronze is actually a brass. Some of these alloys have as much as 40% zinc in them. They are rated as corrosion resistant. As we know the right combination of unpredictable galvanic circumstances and the cookie crumbles. The right combination may never befall you. Bristol Bronze said they supplied the original Pearson Ariels with manganese shaft and shoe. AND THEY LASTED AS LONG AS THEY DID.
Your former disintegrated could very well have been manganese bronze.
Assume is the mother of all f...ups!

[tcoolidge]

Ebb,
I think you are probably right about the old shoe being naval, not silicone bronze. Electrolysis wise it makes more sense and the old shoe was definitely missing some molecules of something. That being said, I'd still go with manganese. It has a higher tensile strength and is considerably harder and after seeing the wear the old shaft put into the shoe I like the idea of a harder bearing surface. As to having silicone bronze inside the blade, the only silicone I used were the nuts, which are now encased in an inch of epoxy and pretty well isolated. As you so accurately point out, manganese bronze nuts and other parts don't exist so I had to use silicone. The rods are manganese bronze cut to length and threaded on both ends and the pins for mounting the shoe are manganese rod peened and ground off so it's all pretty much the same alloy, which is the key, regardless of which you choose. And even with matching alloys I've become a big believer in zincs.

Tom

[george copeland]

I know a little bit about rudders--at least enough to point me toward the right marina bar with the right woman in tow. Whether she is of a silicone construction or not is a matter of little import at best. But I do like 'em brassy. Whadda you two zinc?

[bakravitz]

I have a pearson commander (late 1960's) the old wooden rudder is finally dead.

I need help and information that will lead to a replacement.

Any thoughts


Bernard A. Kravitz
bakravit (A) comcast.net

[Al Lorman]

The rudder on my (alas) former Commander was simply a few pieces of mahogany glued/bolted together with appropriate holes for drift pins and attachments. If yours is still good enough to make a pattern and the metal pieces are intact, it is not a big job from a woodworking point of view. Or I guess you could use thickened epoxy and fiberglass and encapsulate the existing rudder.

As Bill always reminds us, using the search button will turn up more advice on a given subject than most people can assimilate in one sitting.

Happy New Year to all!

Al Lorman

[Bill]

Thanks Al

[Tim61N]

I have decided that since my rudder is probably original, I'm just going to completely rebuild it, sticking pretty close to the original design, except I agree with EBB and have decided to use Silicone Bronze 655 throughout. The shoe is my only concern, perhaps I will use a zinc there or are there silicon bronze repros available? Or should I worry about it?
I got a quote from Alaska Metals in Seattle (I was a little put off by their misleading name) of $111 for a 6ft length of 1" rod, sounded like an OK price.
Also got a quote from Edensaw in Port Townsend for $6.73/bf for 4/4 Honduras Mahogany for the rudder itself.
Anyone interested I would be willing to pick up extra supplies for you if you are along my route down south. Free shipping in exchange for beers and/or sailing? I will be driving from Alaska to San Francisco in late March or early April.
I also may be willing to build an extra rudder if someone was interested. Its always more efficient to do multiples for this kind of thing to defray the cost of setup, tooling, etc.