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Thread: New Generation Anchor

  1. #1
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    New Generation Anchor

    Does anybody here have any experience with the new rollbar anchors. Or an opinion about them?

    The Beugal, used primaryly in the Med for a couple years now.

    The Manson Supreme, from a New Zealand anchor maker of all types. The Supreme has a strange "dual shank" which is supposed to allow you to pull the anchor out of coral or rock by sliding the scackle down toward the blade. But the sharpened point will get it to cut into weed and do that way better than a Bruce. And the spoon shape of the blade is supposed to hold and dig in deeper than a plow or Delta. And the clean design will less likely get fouled like the danforth. 'They say.' A small boat like the Ariel might be interested in one anchor that does it all: mud, sand, gravel, grass, rock. coral.

    The Rocna, an upstart version of the Manson with a plain shank.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-09-2006 at 06:18 AM.

  2. #2
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    Talking Fishing......

    Don't know ebb, BUT on a couple of forums if you even mention RONCA anchors, a sales rep shows up.


    Let's give it a try.

    'Ronca, Ronca, Ronca' (tapping heels together).

    Or maybe,

    Is a Ronca better then a CQR?


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  3. #3
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    > r o n k ! <

    Craig,
    Gee, really? Salesmen? But you have to import the things from Vancouver! Haven't seen them at boat shows either. Bit of a break on the exchange rate.

    You know, Ronca is related to Zonka.
    Ronca is what you do when zonked out safe and cqr at anchor.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-08-2006 at 02:51 PM.

  4. #4
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    <raises hand>

    Oh oh oh! I know the answer!

    Ebb - Do a SEARCH!

    (Finally, *I* get to say it to someone else, for once... )

    Check this thread: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...1&page=3&pp=15

    Of the "new generation" anchors, I've used the Bulwagga, not a rollbar type, yet it works *great*.

    That thread links to our discussion, and also a discussion on the CSBB that is embedded therein.

    Thanks for the opportunity Ebb.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

  5. #5
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    W h a a a l ,
    Just trying to get specific about this type.



    I think I understand the scoop rather than plow concept - the roll bar rather than the weighted tip - the compact and improved delta blade less likely to foul because of the rollbar - the versitility of the anchor in diverse bottoms meaning fewer anchors/weight in the bow of a cruising Ariel.

    There is very little feedback on the net. Much is based on cruisers saying how much they love their Bruce or their Bull or their CQR. Since 338 is not sailing yet, thought I'd ask. Get an update.

    I done know, this is a danforth crowd, right?

    Some designs are winners just because they look right. The Supreme will look comfortable in a roller on the bow, and it's got that convenient handle built right in.

    Ahh, but I was once impressed with my imported 35# Scotts plow - until I saw it being pulled along on its side in a test - and then saw it pulled along creating a farmer's furrow never digging in. (Very interesting that Manson also makes a copy of the CQR and it is featured on their web site. They have a little movie of their best seller setting in the sand without a bit of fuss. Wonder why? Another point is that they only show the black-tails-and-tie Supreme in stainless steel, and no testimonials. Have to find out elewhere there is a galvanized version.)

    Of course you can cook the tests, and some of the claims for this rollbar scoop are extreme and unproven, but
    ...had to start somewhere!

    And just today got a a 25# Manson Supreme from a dealer in south Florida!
    Last edited by ebb; 02-09-2006 at 04:14 PM.

  6. #6
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    Went and checked out the Manson website, Ebb. Looks pretty good, very similar to the Rocna. Hate it when a company won't put a price on their product! How much does a 25# Manson cost? I bet it's close to the Rocna's price, a bit more than the 17# Bulwagga I intend to get later this year...

    These new designs do look as if they'll work. Wish that the marinesuperstores would have some "try before you buy" anchors for our own testing. That way we could do our own testing, in our usual ancoring grounds, and see how the things work in real life...

    Have a friend, Bahamas-bound in another 10 days, on a 31', 8,200# fin keeler. He's been a boat owner for a little over a year. His ground tackle consisted of 1 13# Danforth-knockoff, with 10' or so of chain thimbled to 3-strand rode, and another smaller setup of the same. I told him he *needs* a better, much bigger anchor - maybe 2! Saw him yesterday. He bought another anchor of the same kind/size that he already has. His response to my query? "Oh, it says it is good for boats up to 30'...". I just shook my head and told him "Good luck", since he might just need it... He bought an EPIRB, and inflatable lifejacket things, but balks at the cost of a good anchor. Go figure.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
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    Small boats, long distances...

  7. #7
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    G'mornin, Kurt,
    Brakes do seem to me too as important as the sails, let's say. Not possible to be casual about the hook, like some seem to be. Experience rulls on this and one's relationship with the gods. As I clear a spot here with that morning cup of Pero a postum note surfaced with a list of NEVER SETs (maybe from the Max anchor site?):

    Did not set (dig in) in mud:
    bruce, cqr, barnacle, danforth, fortress, digger, spade.
    And again I'm not sure that the rollbar spades would either. We need uptodate impartial extensive tests again that includes these.
    I don't think that Practical Sailor's 'farm pond' method (as one wag put it) can cut the mustard with cruisers any more. I personally can't see that pulling anchors horizontally with trucks is useful either as a test.
    And the real world testing with huge anchors and tug boats, while better, for sure, don't seem to address accurately anchors and anchoring for small to midsize sailboats. One cruser diving down to take a look at his set describes other boats 'anchored' with their cqrs laying on their sides at the end of their chain!

    Got my anchor ordered from Wayne at Azure Marine, who was rather vague about the price for a 25# Manson Supreme, galv. The Supreme is relatively new for Manson, and I think he deals mostly larger hooks.
    $165. 1-964-062-4515.
    which seemed pretty reasonable for an import. He based his price on a per pound cost of all the Manson anchors he flogs. So I said, if it's within $20 don't call me. It could be more. Have to add UPS, which from south Florida to Sonoma California he estimated would be around $45.

    OK, for the dippers here, I am not recommending this product in any way. I have no experience with this anchor or any past dealings with the Azure Marine outfit.
    I'm skeptical about the "dual shank" design in terms of the stress points where shackle would bear on the anchor. I talked with the Navico (Plastimo)
    importer about the photos on the Manson site ("Dual Shank Anchoring - How It Works") purporting to show a Supreme being pulled out from coral (looks like a piece of concrete to me) with the shackle slid down in the "tripping" position. I said, it looked to me that the point of the spade would still be pulled upward because the pull is still on the lever arm of the shank. Like you guys, sometimes, he don know what I was talking about.

    [Manson is clear about the material used for the shank: Bisplate 80 (ASTM A514) a highly alloyed low carbon plate that doesn't bend under load, easily.
    "Good weldability and Excellent notch toughness" Notch toughness? Maybe that answers some concern about the shackle points on the Supreme shank.
    But not clear about the blade. One also has to assume the aussies know how to hot dip galvanize, a nearly lost art in the USA. So, choosing which rollbar spade, I went with the company with a great reputation for anchors.]
    Last edited by ebb; 02-10-2006 at 08:45 AM.

  8. #8
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    Here is what Ebb is talking about....

    Here is a link to the "Manson Supreme" website.




    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  9. #9
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    Thanks Craig!
    (sorry, somehow the text doubled)
    Last edited by ebb; 02-10-2006 at 01:22 PM.

  10. #10
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    Thanks Craig!
    You'll see what I mean in the last photo of the series on the Supreme 'how it works' page. The chain is being held up at what look like a fairly correct angle to an imaginary deck - but look at the spade, it is still pointed up. Wonder if it could have pulled backout like that if it had gotten wedged in a cranny?

    That shackle groove needs to turn the corner and continue down to the blade. That of course would make the anchor dangerous to use. The only retrieval solution for rock or coral is a conventional bouyed line fastened somewhere to the back of the blade, or maybe the back of the shank. We'll see.

    If we are looking at a hotdip galvanized anchor above, THAT is a spectacular coating. Assume it is not the 316 stainless that supposedly is available - but Wayne did not have prices on s.s. versions and they are not mentioned in the site text.

    Another point to look at is the rollbar. It is free standing assume welded(?) to the blade. Can you crack a weld with a bang on the rollbar? You betcha! Welds are notorious for defects too. If seawater ever gets inside, it will rust the tube - unless they galvanized the inside (which can be done) befor they welded. Unlikely.
    This is a good reason to go stainless, but 316 is not high-strength low carbon alloy plate, and would result in a bendier product. There is a relief hole drilled into the bar for galvanizing - will that let seawater in? Why not, it gets in everywhere anyway.


    Maybe second generation Supremes will have the rollbar attached to a slightly different shank design that would allow the pipe to be attached also to the shank at the center of its arch. That would stablize the welds of the rollbar on the blade. Could design the rollbar with holes so that when the completed anchor is galvanized the zinc will coat the inside of the pipe. We will see.

    In the mean time have they got your money?
    Have they got your boat, more to the point.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-10-2006 at 01:17 PM.

  11. #11
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    Talking thats a nice spiffey anchor ya got there granny....

    but how long will its stay so shiney???and sorry folks.....but there is alot to a name...theres something about the name"manson" that makes me think twice about anchors....welllllllll,jus' stab me in the back!!!!! everything here is just so helter skelter!!!!!
    Last edited by eric (deceased); 02-10-2006 at 11:24 PM.

  12. #12
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by ebb
    The Rocna, an upstart version of the Manson with a plain shank.


    Get your facts straight please! The Rocna design first registered in New Zealand: August 2004.

    In fact we talked to Manson briefly about having them produce the Rocna under license, but we got nowhere. Six months later we saw the first photos of the Supreme.

    It is worth taking a look at Manson's range of product to see if you can find a single original design.

    Quote Originally Posted by c_amos
    Let's give it a try.

    'Ronca, Ronca, Ronca' (tapping heels together).
    *Poof*, here i am.

    Spelling the name properly might help next time if you want a faster response, but I won't hold that against you, it is a strange one

    Quote Originally Posted by ebb
    There is very little feedback on the net. Much is based on cruisers saying how much they love their Bruce or their Bull or their CQR. Since 338 is not sailing yet, thought I'd ask. Get an update.
    As far as any of the new anchors are concerned, you will not see much feedback at all for a while. Even once there is a good number of people out there using them, it will take time for experience to build up, and opinions to form.

    As far as particular people telling you how great their plow, claw, Danforth, or whatever is, it is wise to be cautious. Very few people have sufficient experience with all types to make valuable conclusions. Furthermore, saying that one has had 20 years of excellent experiences with X anchor may prove that anchor X is a good one, but this is also a little like saying one has had 20 years of excellent experiences with candles, and why bother with that electric lighting thingy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebb
    (Very interesting that Manson also makes a copy of the CQR and it is featured on their web site. They have a little movie of their best seller setting in the sand without a bit of fuss. Wonder why?
    Watch our video on our website to see the same anchor skidding along the sand and not setting at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by epiphany
    Went and checked out the Manson website, Ebb. Looks pretty good, very similar to the Rocna. Hate it when a company won't put a price on their product! How much does a 25# Manson cost? I bet it's close to the Rocna's price, a bit more than the 17# Bulwagga I intend to get later this year...
    No, it is quite a bit cheaper.

    You get what you pay for.

    Quote Originally Posted by epiphany
    Wish that the marinesuperstores would have some "try before you buy" anchors for our own testing. That way we could do our own testing, in our usual ancoring grounds, and see how the things work in real life...
    Well, we will offer a money-back guarantee on request. If you returned the anchor claiming you were unimpressed, we would charge you for re-galvanizing, which is only ~$1/Kg, but otherwise refund you in full. We don't offer it by default to prevent people "borrowing" anchors.

    Quote Originally Posted by ebb
    I'm skeptical about the "dual shank" design in terms of the stress points where shackle would bear on the anchor. I talked with the Navico (Plastimo) importer about the photos on the Manson site ("Dual Shank Anchoring - How It Works") purporting to show a Supreme being pulled out from coral (looks like a piece of concrete to me) with the shackle slid down in the "tripping" position. I said, it looked to me that the point of the spade would still be pulled upward because the pull is still on the lever arm of the shank.
    The full length slotted shank is an attempt at stealing some of AnchorRight's market share down here in New Zealand and Australia. AnchorRight produce the SARCA, basically a heavily modified plow, the primary selling point of which is the slot.

    Although popular with small boats, the SARCA has done terribly in reviews, testers generally having problems with the slot. As you suggest, Manson have not properly copied it, and their version would not work even as well as that.

    We have a bit more info about that on our website under "features & details" (bottom of 2nd page).
    Craig Smith
    Rocna Anchors
    www.rocna.com

  13. #13
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    Talking The deal with the ROCNA......

    Thanks Craig,

    Pretty good, picking it up even with my challenged spelling.....

    I think I have figured out the angle on the Rocna. If it ever breaks loose, a sales rep pops up in diving gear and re-sets it before you know you are dragging....


    s/v 'Faith'

    1964 Ariel #226
    Link to our travels on Sailfar.net

  14. #14
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    Rocna vs Manson Supreme

    Craig,
    [Craig (Peter?) Smith is the inventor of the Rocna - in New Zealand.]

    Is this not to say that the Buegel was also lifted from the Rocna design? Or did both your designs appear similtaneously - as has been said about pivotal human inventions?

    "Hey! THAT is a great design. Let's improve on it! Let's make it better. How 'bout a slot down the shank to slide the shackle, etc. Let's make it out of TITANIUM!!!"
    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. And the profit motive.


    As a boat owner, tho, my concern is for my boat and my life. OK?


    Now, blatant copying, using cheaper materials and fabrication is definitely criminal, imco. So what has to be assumed is that there has been no patent infringement on the Rocna with the Supreme's "dual shank". You'd be taking them to court, Right? So, I am corrected on the time line, but is it important?



    NOW, what I'm interested in is what the anchor is made from - and why.
    Is the method of manufacture the best? Is the welding perfect and the welding rod correct for the plate? Do the various metal pieces match in alloy as well as the added metal from the rod in the weldings. Galvanising has to be perfect as well, how long will it last.

    'You get what you pay for' wasn't proved to me from the literature or the visuals on the net. Some real world testing has to be done with the rollbar spoon delta (inverted plow) anchors pitted against each other with some of the old ones tossed in for control. Probably could leave out flat plate anchors like the Bulwagga and concentrate on comparing all of the plow or spoon, or claw anchors, in the marketplace. If the makers, together, put up the funds for independant SIDE BY SIDE testing and published the results, I know I, for one, would be more likely to accept that data. Since nothing substantive or non-ambiguous exists yet from any maker, I depend on intuition, looks and price, if I want one. Real results from real tests would get the "winner", if there was one, into the catalog stores and chandleries. If a maker declined to be part of the test, I'd know, we'd know, and who would trust their anchor?

    A 25# (in that weight class) Rocna was priced to me over the phone at over $300. At Azure Marine, when Wayne said, 'about $165,' for a Supreme of equal weight with the tricky shank, I was hooked. The 24# Buegel in galvanized is available for $260 plus shipping from Inter-Yacht in North Carolina. They also sell another invention called the PowerBall which connects the anchor to the chain that allows it to freely rotate. Impossible to kink the chain, I guess. Something to consider.


    When somebody can prove that they want to sell me the best all round anchor for my boat, bar none, that's what I want on the bow.
    That may have to include a whole new anchoring philosophy to go with the new design.

    Like coming up short on the tether while setting because the anchor buries itself so quickly. Tandom anchoring when preparing for a blow - thats new to me. Including the little things like using dacron instead of nylon for the rode. Hmmmmm.

    I am persuaded that the handsome design concept is sound. I'm not persuaded that I have the right anchor. YET.
    It is easy to see that the Beugel is, metaphorically, a Porche version of the more practical pickup truck Rocna. Agree?


    Since some heat has been generated on this subject, I would suggest that interested 'new generation anchor' buyers go to all the different anchor web sites and cruising boards and make an evaluation not only about this new style anchor - and the hype - but also about what is NOT said about EACH product. What is NOT said is often much more important than the b.s. Your life depends on it. It is not about who crossed the road first but how well the egg is protected.
    Last edited by ebb; 02-12-2006 at 04:28 PM.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigsmith
    No, it is quite a bit cheaper.

    You get what you pay for.


    Well, we will offer a money-back guarantee on request. If you returned the anchor claiming you were unimpressed, we would charge you for re-galvanizing, which is only ~$1/Kg, but otherwise refund you in full. We don't offer it by default to prevent people "borrowing" anchors.
    'aloo, Craig -

    The Manson price Ebb posted was a good deal cheaper than the Rocna or Bulwagga in a size I feel appropriate for my boat. Your comment probably does have merit.

    RE: money back guarantee and "trial-ing" anchors - A few questions/thoughts: Where are your anchors shipped from stateside? We the consumers would be paying the galvy charge + shipping x 2 in order to test a Rocna, assuming that the decision was made not to keep it, so it would be nice to have an idea ahead of time what such charges may be. This info may be on your website, I forget.

    What I had in mind for end-user testing was more going to say West, giving them a credit card, taking their "trial" anchor out and playing with it for a day or two, then returning it after having used it, armed now with actual experience with an anchor to make a decision about buying.

    If the anchor wasn't returned, the CC gets charged for the amount of purchase. This would be a good way for you to get your product into the hands of consumers so that they could evaluate it in real life. It would probably result in more sales for your company. I am unaware of what it would take to swing a deal like this with West or other boating stores, but if it could be done it sure seems like a good idea to promote the product.

    If your supply chain would be too stretched to put multiple anchors in every West store, perhaps you could set up a drop-shipping arrangement with them, where each store would have perhaps 2 or 3 Trial Rocnas of different sizes (for use with different sized vessels). Once an evaluation was done by the consumer using an appropriately sized Rocna, then they would order through West upon returning the trial anchor (the store making a commision on the sale), and your company would ship the new anchor directly to the purchaser from your distribution point.

    I write the following not at all intending to tweak you, but only to give you a viewpoint from a consumer half a world away who only knows you and your product as electrons whizzing around the internet. I hope you will take it simply for what it is - my own opinion and input.

    Noteco Bulwagga anchors have a 100% Satisfaction Guaranteed policy, no galvy charge, and the consumer is given an entire year in which to decide whether or not to keep the anchor. I consider this to be a *strong* statement that the product will perform in excess of my expectations. Knowing that I had a year to use and evaluate the anchor showed me that the manufacturer had full confidence in the product and my eventual satisfaction with it. This is important to me when buying something unseen and untested, and at that time, relatively unused and so with very few real-life experiences of others to draw upon when making a decision.

    It so happened that I was sold on the anchor after the first few times I used it; it *far* outperformed the Danforth that I had at the time, to the point that I never even considered returning the Bulwagga. I would not hesitate to buy for trial any product which has such a guarantee in place. The Bulwagga guarantee is simple, direct, applied across the board without specific request, and is in full view on their website. It reads as follows:

    "Full refund of purchase price for any reason within one year of purchase date by
    original individual purchaser. Excludes shipping and handling costs."


    Based on my own common sense, and the information you provide via your website and comments on boards such as this, I'd think that your anchor works exceedingly well and is indeed an improvement over "old generation" solutions. I felt the same way about the Bulwagga back then, but what *really* induced me to buy before trying their anchor was that it was a no-lose proposition for me - other than shipping charges, there was no risk or cost to me to experiment with the anchor to my satisfaction before deciding to keep it. That is one hell of a marketing tool.

    This should be said: I do not nor have I ever received any compensation from Noteco Bulwagga (regrettably ). I am just an extremely satisfied customer - their product worked exceedingly well for me, and the guarantee was reassuring enough to me that I had no qualms about sending them some boat bux before ever actually even seeing the product in person, much less being able to handle or try it.

    Craig - Thanks! I appreciate your taking the time to talk to us about your product and others.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    --------------------------------------------------
    sailFar.net
    Small boats, long distances...

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