Outboard Discussions

[ebb]

Scott, think your 6hp is about right -- right at the limit for weight aft of the rudder.
Yamaha 110lbs for an 8-4 became ridiculous for me to stomach, Just looked up
Honda OBs and found a 15 at 104lbs. Maybe you can HP-up to an 8 and keep
the weight the same with a modern motor $3400.

I can't deal with petro smells anymore. Kerosene, diesel, gasoline, strong solvents
like toluene acetone are out. Still grudgingly use naptha for decal/tape removal
but non-toxics are appearing. And I use a tiny amount to thin 2-part liquid epoxy
as a first coat sealer. Fossil fuel days are numbered. Expensive high labor lithium
must be on their way out. They're almost fossils by now, we need an efficient, less
labor intensive battery that will last for 20 years. Somebody is working on it!

[ebb]

Second try here. Abrupt erase again, This time itmwasn'y my computer.

Bill, you may hve some kind of time limit set up on posting. It takes me

a l;ongn time to type. You must have a 'clearing' time limit where if a

certain function doesn't happen, like finishing a post and saving it, the

window will automatically clear the window.

I believe this is a sign from a superior force. To hell with it..

[Bill]

Ebb, we have no time-outs, so it's probably your local network again.

[ebb]

Tech was just here, says it's all my fault. (Refer Above)


EPROPULSION VS TORQEEDO
Electric OB motors. Anybody REALLY interested?? I want and need lithium

batteries, instead of lead/acid.. Anybody tell you that Torqeedo batteries are

LiNMC, lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt. Same type that Tesla uses. And I

have just been made aware of this. [see Yachting World,October 2020,

"Lithium boat batteries: Why now is the right time to upgrade your electrics"]


So while I never understood why Torqeedo couldn't produce a descent

electric OB for a 26' sailboat, they were in the forefront as far as batteries.

Tesla batteries have to be replaced after 125,000 miles. Obviously innovation

will occur in this industry, in fact the word is: 3 companies are working on a

battery good for a million miles!! (YachtingWorld).


After I sold the Yamaha 8-4, grudgingly went with T's peeked Cruise4. Never

committed. Then one day found epropulsion. They had only 3 electric OBs.

One called Navy 6.0 with a 9.9HP rating. It had the motor under the cowl up

top. Not in the water with the prop like Torqeedo. Researched. They seemed

to have covered everything and done everything right. The OB looked great.

Contacted the seller, study their website and the Manual. A little time goes by.

I get on an obvious more current page, and I'm looking at a Torqeedo.


But it isn't. It's the new Navy 6.0 2021 model. with a bulbous swelling in front

of the propeller. So I call up the guy and he says, "Oh, that's the new model for

2021", like I shoulduv known. So now we have two electric motors that can be

minutely compared. It is as if epropulsion has consciously designed the outboard

that Toqeedo forgot. (Who thot this was a niche market? And there is a huge

wad of money needed for redesigning, reengineering, recasting a new Navy6.0 )

The whole OB is bigger, not built on the troller Cruise frame. While it looks similar,

2021 Navy 6.0. looks, at least from this computer, more like a real OB. I think it

weighs in 65lb, almost like a 2stroke. But there is something very different:


Torqeedo has spent their R&D time developing a DEEPBLUE line of batteries for

their speed boat platform. BMW has a small Euro electric vehicle whose battery, I

believe was developed by Torqeedo. Could say the crossover is old news. We're

still on the way of a truly useful, less price punishing, battery for the sailboat crowd.

When we look at a marina, hardly anybody is sailing. Every boat has a fossil-fuel

engine, their day is overdue for an electric makeover.. Batteries haven't quite

caught up yet. I want one for my 2003 Honda Element!!!


Stop for now. If you're interested at all in electric OBs and lithium bats, the Yachting

World article is a good read!

[CapnK]

Within the past month or two I saw some reference (seems like it was an Ariel related place...?) to a motor like the Honda/saildrive-enstein, but it was made back in the late 60's/early 70's, used an Evinrude 2 stroke on the top end. Sailing Uma on YouTube have fitted an electric motor with a saildrive type unit, it was/is manufactured that way - and I imagine more pricey than even a well-kitted Ariel without one would be.
I'm selling my Merc 6hp 4strk to a fellow who needs to get a Catalina 30 down to Florida. A friend was given for free a Yamaha 4hp 4strk longshaft earlier this year; he in turn gave it to me. Great friend! (Note to self: get him a good Xmas present...) It's an older model, he was told it had been barely used. When I went to service it the oil was still golden in color, so I think it has been run less than an hour. I'm gonna give it a break-in treatment, and it'll become Katie's aux. The 6hp worked fine up until 20+ kts wind, I think the 4hp will work for someone like me who likes the idea of motorlessness but it too chicken****e to actually go that way. And the long-term dependability of Yamahas in saltwater environs is not a factor to be overlooked.
One note on the Yam 4's - of all the years they were made, it seems, there were but 2 years when a carb swap could turn them into a 6hp motor.
Mine is one of those two years, that's the only 'bad' thing about it.

[ebb]

EPROPULSION IS CRIPPLED ON THE USA INTERNET

selling and buying is a major activity on the net.
EPROPULSION GETS A FAILING GRADE from ebb ON HOW THEIR PRODUCTS
ARE REPRESENTED on the net and by their vendors.

Now, I've read that epropulsion is the invention of two HongKong University
entrepreneurs.
I don't know what their mission statement is. There seems to be a Torqeedo
connection, and a we can do it better attitude. These small electric outboards
are in a class by themselves. And I'm surprised that there is a competitor out
there that believes there's money to be made in this tight niche market. As I've
said, it's remarkable that an OB already established will suddenly unannounced
completely revamp their main product, the Navy 6.0. The reason was: to make
a better product, to improve not cheapen it. I mean, what else?

The older model had a right angle gear 'box' just before the prop that may have
been a problem -- because that is what they changed by putting the motor in
front of the prop. (like Torqeedo has always had it.)
But with a more versatile and powerful motor, that can both push an 'up to six
ton(!)' sailboat and plane an airboat. Conceptually superior, we are led to believe.
epropulsion makes three electric OBs: a 1.0 (Spirit)3hp - a 3.0 6hp - 6.0 9.9hp.
Navy.. Which they developed first.

The internet sites are sticky, unresponsive, hypish and almost useless. While
some thumbnails of the OB show the new Navy 6.0, last year's is prominent.

Torqeedo and Elco show up uninvited, but the only actual vendor: RJ Nautical
is all over the place. The 'other' vendor (FourSeas) is nowhere to be found, is
it because they aren't in the payola deal with google? No, it's just that they all
seem to use the same incompetent epropulsion feed. The problem is they all
repeat the same epropulsion hype, so user unfriendly it's more like an enigma.

No one's corrected it since I've been around, and my brief association with sales
at FourSeas has been disappointing. No one seems to care that the web presence
of epropulsion is totally useless, negative and unavailable, download is blocked.
WHY the hell why? You would think this would rub off on the product. The shine
is gone for me. Have not found a credible home address to write or phone.

[ Years ago now, I looked into Elco's line of electric OBs. Looked promising. Called
sales and the guy could not go into depth about the OBs, it was like he was
reading from notes. Then I looked at their design. I had already discovered
Parsun OBs, They are Chinese and make every kind of OB including electric, every
fishing boat in the orient is powered by Parsun. On the face of it, we'd think the
motors were foolproof and reliable. AND indeed, that's what Elco was selling, on
the blind face of it, as their own. PARSUN has no viable USA vendor, At that time.. ..
The point is, if you are going to flog your product in the US, you better iron out
all the kinks that turn customers off. Including untrained uninformed unenthusiastic
vendors. Incomplete specs, missing diagrams, nodownload copyrighted websites. ]

They have an accessible 50page Manual to study. An electric motor has no hoses,
exhaust, smell, oil, gasoline -- but an electric OB has a finicky and hugely expensive
dedicated battery system that has many must do's, should do's, don't do's and hoo
doo's required to keep the system happy in a salt environment.
Can't find anybody who has cruised with a Navy 6.0.* Epropulsion is 8 years old.
It should be further along with a kind of marketing friendliness that would reduce
meaningless hype and add transparency and owner or 3rd party detail, like a mag
article, or literate YouTube.
[*nor, for that matter, are there reports of anysailor using a Torqeedo Cruise 4 as
an auxiliary for cruising..]

Advertised as quiet, visited a YouTube farm, where one guy wound-up his Navy6.0
to a definite loud whine. An unpleasant mechanical noise I wouldn't like at a lower
rpms either.. something that needs hearing before buying. Prop noise has to be
louder than motor noise. And near silent when required.

[ebb]

Epropulsion has surfaced (Four Winds, vendor) with the new Navy 6 (9.9hp) motor
in the water. It's a large utilitarian sausage that propels a 11-12" prop. This
vendor has made it possible to download some paper on the accessories. But
There is as yet no Manual for the installation. And the manageable Navy batteries
matched to the Navy 3-6.0 outboards have mysteriously been dropped. Replaced
with standard batteries that range in weight 63lbs-100+lbs-&180lbs! No choice
on the Ariel and the ancient mariner: 60+lbs I can hardly manage and I think
I'm going to need at least 8 of them ($2,000ea) in parallel to power the motor.
The bats are LiPo type, not the newer tesla nickel type. And are packaged in metal
cases rather than plastic, making them heavy.

My problem is ignorance about this electric OB phenomenon, and dealing with a
vendor who has no experience (so far as I am aware) with cruising sailors.
My live contacts are old fossils hooked on fossil fuels, except for one notable Triton
owner who has moved his boat to the Seattle area while he finishes business here,
and his electric motor is inboard.

My feeling is that epropulsion is unable to finesse their American market. One assumes
they must be interested in owning the 10hp niche category they seem to be aimed at.
Somehow we have to trust their expertise in manufacturing electric outboard motors*
and excuse their inability to present their products to the US market. At least the
appearance of transparency has to be present. Into the third month of 2021 without a
companion Manual for the Navy 6.0 is pretty miserable. Something tells me the motor
is a good deal, but the batteries are problematic, and the presentation sucks!

{*They are a new company (8years by now) bourn by a couple young men at Hong
Kong University -- so what's to trust?}

[ebb]

IS IT TIME TO TAKE THE PRO OUT OF e...PULSION?


It's Monday. Thursday it's April Fools.
This thing with ePropulsion (sic) is a bit fishy. And I am too concentrated on the smell.

I have found that ePro has offices all over the world. They make it sound like they have
vendors all over the states. I have found two here on the Westcoast, with a main distributer
in NewJersey. Sent them an email asking specifically for a 2021 Navy 6.0 Manual. They
sent back a link for the 2020 manual.. {When you download, it first prints the complete
manual in German. Then the manual in Chinese. Then the 28pages in English. I did it
last year. Nobody is going cruising with an electric outboard..

The three websites just mentioned still feature pictures and descriptions of their first made
Navy (so called) outboards. But they are last year's models. ePro's smaller (Spirit so called)
motors occupy YouTube. So why bother?

The 2020 Navy 6.0 (9.9hp) was paired with a Navy battery (23.4"x8.23"x11.15"). It has
been totally expurgated from all the literature as if the battery never existed. It rated
3042Wh and they got like $2,000 for it. I thought 4 of these (12168Wh) would be adequate.
The new 2021 motor, direct drive in the water, with hydrogeneration (dragging the unit with
motor off prop out of gear? to push energy back into the bats). With an almost ten year
history on the concept and now completely revampt and housed in saltwater proof IP67
security.. seemed pretty cool. Motor, direct drive, in the water doesn't need elaborate
shaft cooling like the 2020 Navy 6.0 did with the motor up top under the cowl.

The all important battery comes in 3 weights, the lightest is about 63lbs - cost 1,000 dollars.
It's lithium iron phosphate, relatively safe. Power rated at 2048Wh (E40) 48v. I'd need 6
to match the original Navy bats, thinking 12,000Wh was correct cruise backup for the motor.

But there is a rub. The E40 battery comes in a neat stainless steel package: 7.48"Hx16.48"W
x15.35 Deep. The fittings/connections, plug-ins, read-outs, wire connects are all on the
short side, which also has two 'handles' that sort-of double as protectionators. These bats
come with rubber foam mats top and bottom on the square sides.

Last day of March 2021. Just erased a whole bunch of vitriol.
Because I was just assured by FourSeas that the E batteries (and in my case the E40 can be
orientated anyway I choose. I've already complained about the bats cassette player case
style that has the controls on a short side. If I want to have the controls pointing UP (like
an AGM - or any battery since the dawn of the automobile) then it'd need 15 or 16" to stand
on its short side/end.. If they were grouped together, wiring parallel be easy -- don't know
if I have the locker room. We'll see..

4Seas also advised that I need at least 3 E40s to run the Navy 6.0.
Don't know what to expect handling the boat. Whether more backup runtime necessary,
necessary in terms of comfort level. How well regeneration works. How well the SunPower
panels work.

[ebb]

Got an email from MarkBoring in NewJersey , said to be the 'distributor' for ePropulsion
in the States, to expect the 2021 Navy 6.0..

and the Manual for this all new electric outboard..

TO BE HERE MID APRIL.


No wonder the odd silences. They don't have the 2021 models in the States yet.


(next post wants to print smaller than 100)

[ebb]

epropulsion Navy 6.o Evo. is what they call the 2021 version of their
most powerful electric outboard. A few notes.

Looked thru the in-the-water Manual, which is not quite up to date*.
Perhaps there is another coming. I want a hard copy, not available.
Down loading 55 single sheet pages doesn't do it for me. I want an
actual Manual. Assume one comes with the motor in the box!
*New downloadable Manual talks about coolant for the shaft and
gear oil -- believe these are no longer necessary.

There is a lot of careful stuff to learn about the electrics. If learning
curves are bell-shaped, mine has a crack in it.


The Ariel motorwell clamp is about 17-18" from the water surface.
The 30" Navy 6.0L Evo when hung on the clamp-board will put the
top of the 13"D prop 5-6" under, which is about right for the motor
to run and prop not to cavitate. But the Ariel squats, crew aboard or
cruising trim will alter things. I installed a jackplate that can
electrically lower the motor -- but I'm going to remove it, added
weight. And it's a thing.


Here's a new rub: When we first were asking what the OB motor
weight was it was around 65lbs for the Navy 6.0, or so I thought.
Now it turns out the weight of the motor alone, not including the
tiller or steering module is 81 pounds. I've triple checked it! That's
more than I can move around..
This means, of course, once the 6.0 Evo is installed it's not going
to move -- except to tilt.

Three E40 batteries, the minimum to run the motor, weigh 186lbs..and
it would be smart to have 4 bats hooked into the motor, that's 247lbs
Cases are 16.5 x 8.2 x 15.4. (Can be stacked on any side.. the face
side with controls is the 16.5 x 8.2.) Never planned for any battery
stowage to be 15.4 plus wires tall.
NO, the batteries cannot be STACKED, because heat generated wld
be a problem. They can only take 122 degrees F. Which is ridiculous.


3249 for the motor. But the Evo tiller is about 300 extra, and is not
included in the whole weight of the motor
so is the charger, cables, and batteries at $1000 each. Not to mention
the solar panels. etc. It's almost rediculus the weight & expense to be
fossil free.
Going 'global' certainly expensive. There's still Top and Bottom paint
to green-up, no solvents aboard ship. We have natural varnish in
LeTonkinois, but I'm going to paint most of it over in grey & white.
Because the luscious ease of Tonk is erased by the varnish having no
lasting power in the California sun. I can't deal with that.


APPLES VS ORANGES
We have a lot more electric oranges than gas apples, in comparison.
So we have a lot more weight aboard, and a lot more money, and a
lot more to get comfortable with. Getting rid of the petroleum presence
that's the beauty. No longer having that 110lb Yamaha 8-4stroke is
more about the smell than climate change, that IS what it is about.
And the weight. But look at this 81+lb Navy Evo!! What? 25lbs of
copper windings in that sausage? A lot to chew. If we weren't
fossilizing the planet, that loud smoky monster looking purdy good..

AND light-weight lithium bats in heavy stainless steel cases. Bit Nutz.
If I cld find the space for 4 E40 batteries, that if stacked on edge the
4 of them is like having a 250lb football crewman aboard in weight
and mass. And I just heard, the motors won't arrive until August.

Hope the once young and restless university student engineers have
all their ducks in order. Have all my OOPS to deal with, don't want
epropulsion OOPSES all asudden coagulating on a strange lee shore..
OK, you nonagenarians ATTEN HUT!


ePropulsion Hype admits that the Navy 6.0 (the first motor the Hong
Kong University student engineers developed -- but now totally different)
is the backbone of their company -- NOW it's more looking like an
over-engineered Frankenstein monster. In no way does it compare
with the 4-stroke 8HP gas motor I impetuously sold away on craigslist.
I may be forced back into the dark ages of carbon footprints.