Anchor roller

[Tony G]

Craig

I've been diggin around and didn't find a/the post or response I was hoping to find. So I'm going to just throw it out there. Did you end up putting a snubber attachment like the one you posted a photo of on Faith?

As we will be ripping out the water tank added two years ago the subject of anchor rode, where it's carried and what not can be addressed more logically in my camp (hopefully, that is).

Appreciate your real world input.

[c_amos]

Tony,

Yes I did. I wish I had fabricated something as bomb proof as the one pictured (borrowed from the link I posted IIRC). I ended up using a 'bow eye' like something you would see on a trailer Sailor.

The procedure was to drop and set the hook. I would make the chain fast by passing a bit of small stuff through one of the links (if the 60' of chain was still on deck). I would then attach the snubber to the bow eye (just reachable from the deck). I used a ~12' 1/2" dock line for a snubber.

I would pull enough chain back to attach the snubber so it would take the load. This worked very well, especially with the Manson's short scope holding.

Since scope is calculated from the height the rode is secured, the swing circle could be cut down quite a bit. For instance, 7' of water to get 7:1 you need about 70' of rode if you secure on deck. If you use the snubber eye (couple inches above the water line) you can cut that down to 49'.

When parking just off the ICW, we were able to go 3:1 in ~5' and wind up with a swing circle of somewhere near 40'. Pretty handy.

The ride seems to be better when riding the snubber, and I know there is less strain on the roller. We always secure the rode on deck also, so if the snubber parted we were not going anywhere.

Worked well for us. I picked up a nice 3/8" eye from Fawcetts that I will replace the bow eye with on the next re-work. This is the same fitting you often see the dolphin striker secured to on boats with a bow sprit.

[Tony G]

Thanks, Craig. That sounds too danged logical to pass up on. One inescapable apprehension I've held in the cracks of my mind is the stress on a bow roller cantilevered out front even on a short sprit. So tonight you'll find me hanging off the bow seeing how far down I can reach and conducting other highly scientific research. Hey, it's Friday night and this kid knows how to party!

One more question. How do you secure a chain rode on deck? I've seen a number of bow rollers with chain stoppers incorporated into them. All seem to follow the same basic design that involves a levered, slotted toggle (?) that captures a link as the chain is pulled toward the pivot. I know you know what I'm talking about... Do you wrap the mooring bit?

Beating Darwin one post at a time, Tony

[ebb]

I'm going to go as close as I can to Craig's BOW EYE method of anchoring.

For me the issue is what material the eye should be. McMasterCarr has 316 shouldered eyes in sizes up to 1".
Stainless has a bad rep. Bad enough for me not to be able to trust it - even over size. Anchoring a 5000# sailboat on ONE bolt* scares the hell out of me.
I'd be thinking of a 3/4" eye at least!

There are no bronze eye bolts on the market.
I'm looking into bronze eyes from a turnbuckle source.
There may be too much fiddling. The bolt, for example, may have to be threaded closer to the eye so that the eye will be closer to the bow when mounted. The bow is wide enough in its curve to be able to have a nut (as the shoulder) buried in it.
Alterations would include beefing up the area around the thru-bolt inside with chopped glass filler and serious matt tabbing.
Might even spread the pulling load more with a thick backing plate.
[There seems to be no bronze rigging eyes available anywhere.]

Just visited Ballenger Spars in Watsonville.
On the counter was a broken bronze turnbuckle eye, the kind that takes a toggle.
It was broke like a piece of toast. The metal looked crystallized. Manufacturer said it was a bad batch, according to Buzz.
Who made the bad batch and didn't test before marketing... I didn't ask.

Note to self: better check that the material IS silicon and not manganese bronze.
What's in a name brand?
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
*I know thinking too much is a main problem with me, BUT
I would trust a U-bolt more than a single leg bolt. Right?
Not only that but a U-bolt is not cast or 'forged'. The metal in a rod is molecularly arranged better to take a strain and is probably more malleable.
Easy to imagine a U-bolt of s.bronze - but not easy to see how to bend oversize stuff into a tight U.

[DECIDED THAT NO CAST FITTING CAN BE TRUSTED. That includes those cast stainless U-bolts used for stem fittings. The problem is the loads on this special use fitting come from many different angles, coupled with shock loads - and sustained loads at an odd angle.
I'm at a loss. I can see an oversized cast bronze fitting with a strong loop. Like earmuffs with the fitting fastened thru the sides with a stout bar/rod connecting across the bow.
Will follow through on bending s.b. rod and post here
if any interest]

I wonder if chafe can be defeated (and the load shared) if TWO eye bolts [or U-bolts] were put in the stem.
One low down like you have,
but why not another higher up under the stem fitting?
Or for that matter Can eyes be put in the hull under the toerail in the forequarter somewhere back from the stem? With the attempt at eliminating chafe altogether?

Not rhetorical, I'm seriously asking this!

[Tim D.]

OK just to throw another line into the mess, How about a 3 point snubber adding a line to the eye from this kind of snubber setup (pic lifted from a previous Ebb post) The line could provide the low pull with the security of the bridle to back it up.

[ebb]

OK, TIM!

Not knowing nothing, let me throw this in.
The nylon snubber shown connects to the deck via softeyes that pass through and then over open-base cleats. Have to assume that there is chafe on the splices from the toerail?
And from the looks of it, that would be difficult providing chafe protection - that's a guess.

Suppose under the cleats, or thereabouts, there were eyes or U-bolts like I mentioned in the above post. The same set up could change out softeyes for spliced eyes and shackles - and no chafe.

One leg of the set up shown might be lowered to the waterline eye in the stem. If there was one.
That would lower the pull somewhat. Don't know by how much - but would it lower the load enough to make Craig happy?


There is more chafe implied in the drawing where the nylon line is pulled against the stem as it crosses to the windward side. Does it follow that if that leg of the snubber was attached to the stem eye near the bootstripe that all chafe could be eliminated?

Guess that a three leg snubber could be devised for more versatility.


Again, not knowing: Does line get chafed at a cleat it is attached to
if the line is free to move?

The drawing (originates from the Bosun's Supplies site) shows cleats that appear to be above the toerail. In reality any anchor line or snubber end attached to the deck would have a chafe problem as it comes up on deck from the water.

[Tim D.]

I am not worried about chafe!

That's why I have been stealing firehoses from school for all these years

[ebb]

ah! those poor kids
not chafed but charred.

[ebb]

Cruiser's Forum
Rolling Hitch Nylon Rode Snubber? - Cruisers & Saing Forums
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ch-nylon-rode-...

[ forums/f118/rolling-hitch-nylon-rode-...]
that's what I typed and that's why the blueline url is not correct.

Two page forum.
Interesting because this shows how difficult it is to explain knots and methods for people and how difficult it is for people to comprehend stuff.
As to the subject of the Forum, which is a snubber for nylon line that uses a prusic knot that has to be tied ONE handed - I still don't get it 100%, probably a lot less.

[c_amos]

Been out experimenting all day...

Sailed around for a while and then decided to see if I could get the Manson to bite on less then 2:1....

Snubbed at the bit, on the bow.... to the bottom in 39'... dropped 60' of chain. The anchor held for 4 hours... with ~1.25 knots of tide and breeze (less then 15). Silly to try I know... this thing just works.

Rose caught 7 fish and a weird looking worm, I caught ONE... using the same bait... go figure.

Tony;

One more question. How do you secure a chain rode on deck?

I looked at the chain stoppers, and did not want to make more holes in the deck... and did not really care for any of the designs I saw anyway. The plate type seem to want all tension off of them to release and would not want a load on the chain when attaching them... not likely.

THe hook type seem light to me and have the same problem.

We use a bit of small stuff about 4' long with well seized ends. It is pretty good stuff, maybe left over from the downhaul replacement...?

Just pass it through the link, and make both ends fast to the bit. The bit knot is much like a cleat knot... wrap around the base, and a figure 8 with the second loop turned under.* This is going to hold well, and can be released or secured under quite a load. Simple, strong, and no additional holes in the deck. Same method is used to secure the anchor in the roller.

* You know when you type something on the internet and you think "I hope I am not insulting anyone by explaining this..." Well, I hope no one is insulted.

Ebb,

I agree with the weird loading angles. The natural angle of the bow 'points' pretty much forward and down at a nominal 5:1 slant (maybe less). Puts the 'normal' load in tension... but once she starts sailing around the anchor all bets are off. I went with a standard off the shelf bow eye... which (IIRC) was rated at #2500 (I am sure that would not apply to lateral loads). I am uprating it, although it did take the snubber load through Hurricane Noel with no apparent damage.

If the bolt shears and the snubber fails the rode is still secured on deck.

Tim,

If you look at Faith's foredeck hardware arrangement, your picture is pretty close to my set up. The 10" bronze cleats are mounted near the deck edge much like the picture. I planned to make up the same snubber in your picture, and probably still would for riding a mooring.

[Tim D.]

"Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery"

I've got my 10" cleats ready to be installed when the painting is done.

[ebb]

Craig, Thanks for 'experimenting' with us!
And, ah, trying to inject some knowledge into this subject.

There is no embarrassment in explaining a knot you think we ought to know.
When you think about it, how easy is it to explain in writing how to tie a cleat wrap? Problem is you have to assume too much about the experience level of your readers. Look what had to come about with Knots by Grog, for instance, where words are replaced with step by step stop-action pictures.

Walk down the floats in any marina and you'll see many cleats tied up wrong.
Many boats too.


Just saw in Sail magazine an aid for the sheet winch - which is a disk, I guess peel-and-stick, that you put around the base of the winch. It has big arrows printed on it to show of course which way to wrap the sheet.
Wouldn't think it necessary, right?
You know, and George, Ebb too, will still be wrapping the jib-sheet backwards anyway.
Could use a peel-n-stick arrow thingy to help tying off a cleat properly.

About using chainhooks, once had a large rather crude galvanized pelican hook on a pendant that you engaged the arm into a chain link, It had a ring keeper that held the pelican shut. You slipped the ring up to upset the hook and release the chain. Never got to use it, but it would be exciting to keep your fingers out of it. Can release chain under load with it, which you can't with a chainhook.
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MANSON SUPREME
It's great that Craig continues to be impressed with the anchor!

I went back to the Manson home site and found that they seem to have expanded and rewritten the section on the Supreme. I think the anchor has become popular primarily through word-of-mouth, since the original presentation on the site wasn't all that impressive. The West Marine/Yachting Monthly test helped a lot. And reading through the forums, so did the negative spin from the Rocna forum-infiltration and hype that seemed to bother a lot of people. Manson's managing director who emails and evidently reps the anchors at boat shows said that he carries only the Supreme on his personal cruiser.

Noticed the statement that the Supreme 'fits any standard roller' now seems to be gone, except that Azure Marine still copies the phrase.*
I mentioned once to the rep that there wasn't any off-the-shelf roller that would actually work with the Supreme - that is my presumption - and suggested they design and sell their own.
That's not going to happen - but Windline might alter their humongous bruce style anchor roller to receive the Supreme.
Kingston has twice the selection of Windline and might have one that works good. Haven't looked into it.


The thing is there is no need for the anchor roller unit to be made in stainless. It would be imco more appropriate and CHEAPER to be GALVANISED. Manson could make the rollers COMPANIONS to the galvanized Supremo's and made from the same super alloy! There you go.


Made a 1/4" plywood model for my 25# and discovered the roller has to be even lower than the BRMs to engaged the curve in the shank near the fluke.
[Believe the bruce style roller shown in the photo above ia a Windline BRM.
The URM's would really hump up the curved Supreme when pulled all the way up because of where the roller is placed.] In fact I ended up with the model having two smaller diameter rollers and a narrower channel. That means less metal weight. Also made the channel bump up on the inboard end for a couple clevis pin holes to hold the anchor for self launching. Then looked into off-the-shelf wheel rollers and ...then got involved in other stuff.
If nothing else I have a 3D picture to compare with catalog dimensions - to try to match with a ready-made.

Got the shank to sit horizontal, and the fluke relatively snug against the two rollers in the model. But there is too much metal out front on a Windline BRM (whose dimensions I used to begin with, almost enough to be its own anchor! Has to be scaled W A Y down!
("Don't need no stickun Supreme, I jes toss the roller in, works purdy goood!")
Dang, do I have to make my own roller......???
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* (google) Convert Anchor Roller for CQR - Page 2 - Sail Net Community
[no urls come up for me anymore!]
Second post by 'Maine Sail' has a quality photo of a Garhauer made roller on a Catalina. The guy sez his new Manson "fits fine" where he used to have a CQR. The anchor is perched precariously on one point with his chain under full tension in his roller. And I think under more tension than the weight of the Supreme.
He's joking of course - the photo illustrates what the problem is with normal roller-channels and that 'standard rollers' really can't work with a Supreme. A roller should imco house the Supreme in a more neutral position - but still 'self launching'.
Actually the Supreme can't help but be self-launching - no matter what.
all imco.

[Tony G]

Looked at the Garhauer bow rollers and compared the '30' to the windline urm-3. The 30 is 2" shorter in the overall length and about $70.00 shorter where it hurts. Got to thinking Craig is pretty pleased with his set-up minus scooching the roller forward a fraction of an inch, so why wouldn't this one work. We'll have to see how the two, Garhauer and Manson, fit.

I saw the Catalina photo Ebb brought to light. It may be that a slight modification is in order. Not like that hasn't happened before!

[ebb]

Just glued together a model of an anchor roller-channel.
It uses two $8 trailer 'bow rollers': some nice 3" wide by 3" diameter flat bottom V-groove amber orange polyurethane ones by Stoltz.
The model is not reproducible, it's to see if the idea is possible.
And also to see if any off the shelf rollers can be substituted.

This model is a more rounded sport version of some of those DarthVador Windline claw rollers. It fits the shank of the Supreme 25 like a glove. It is too wide for my liking but that is because the width of the channel has to be wide enough to fit the shackle (with its stupid lop-sided pin-eye) that connects the chain to the anchor.
[A Crosby 2 ton WLL 3/8" Alloy anchor shackle is less than 2 1/2" wide. Can see a narrower channel if narrow wheels were available off the shelf.]

The sides of the channel at the inboard end bump up and have holes to engage the shackle holes in the end of the Supreme.
Maybe rig a clevis pin to be yanked out for self launching. That's the idea.
Convenient to have two holes (one is the end of the slider option). The holes are vertical, one above the other in the model.
The anchor in the roller would not need to be tensioned with a chainhook, as it can be held with a clevis pin.

The shank of the 25# is only about 14.5" long before it begins to seriously curve toward the blade. The model has the shank of the Supreme lying LEVEL in the channel. On edge, but horizontal. The anchor looks like it oughter look in this attitude.
I don't think we want to see it humped up and uncomfortable on the bow of an Ariel or Commander, right?
If you mounted this roller over your bow, the anchor in this position can do nothing else but self-launch.

The first roller has the bearing part of the V-groove below the plane of the channel. Because the shank sweeps down suddenly from the straighter part of the shank.
[What imco you have to look for in a Windline or Kingston is that the roller groove is below the plane of the channel - not level or above.]
.
The second roller is below the first and further outboard. Its groove engages the turn of the shank also. This is the roller that will turn and orient the anchor into the channel when being hauled aboard.
The wheels are close to 3" diameter. So you can only place them so close together and that's it.
The lower wheel is just above the curve where the shank does a U-turn to meet the blade when the Supremo is housed.

With a clevis pin in one of the holes in the top of the anchor, the anchor will not be able to jump out of the channel. It will move very little except wobble side to side because of the channel width. Might be able to figure that out with orange poly props!

Now whether such a short roller has enough length to be mounted with enough overhang to keep the sharp pointy end of the hook from gouging the bow...we'll have to see.

I'll try a fit this weekend.
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Craig's choice of Wineline's BMR3 and BMR4 certainly look like they can do the job. I'd like to have one to actually see how it fits (instead of reinventing the wheel so to speak) The Manson Supreme's wide shank makes the bail difficult to permanently place on my model because it has to stick way out to not get in the way of hoisting the anchor, and turning the anchor, into the rollers.

[jan nikolajsen]

Looks like I'm a new Ariel owner, so it's time to start planning. No bow roller on this one, yet. Dismal ground tackle included in the deal.

Excuse me for rambling on a bit about some thoughts and ideas re turning this classic into what we think is a suitable coastal cruiser. We take long trips up the west coast of British Columbia, anchoring every night. The water is deep, mostly, and the bottom often sandy with weeds and lots of rocks.

I love anchors and all things associated. Maybe a carry over from a life's worth of climbing and mountaineering. The 2500 lbs 20 foot yawl we just sold had 3 anchors: 7.5 kg claw stern hook, 10kg claw working anchor and a 15kg plow storm. All with 50' of chain, 250' rode. Hundreds of pounds of steel and perlon.

Since the money all went to those wonderfully sculpted hunks of metal, we had no electronics save a hand held VHF.

Now we're going to a 5500 lbs boat. The cruising grounds will also extend to more remote, desolate and potentially challenging areas. And the Ariel squats her stern easily, I've seen on pictures. All of the above are good reasons to invest in heavy ground tackle.

Still have the 15kg plow, but never really liked it that much. It worked for the 20 footer because of sheer mass vs light boat, but when diving on it, it always just laid there on its side half buried.

Thinking our new working anchor should be one of those new and well advertised Rocnas, size 10 with 50' of 1/4" chain - 250' of 3 strand. Heavier chain and anchor, while ideal, will make it hard for anybody aboard but me weighing anchor. Stepping up to windlass just seems like too much gear, money and clutter, so the balance will be delicate between sleeping soundly and light enough stuff to handle.

People say these spade designs work so good, that I can't think of anything better as a back-up/storm hook. Maybe I'll throw the plow in for a spare, and also have a good length of heavy chain around for those well forecasted blows we seem to get a couple of every summer.

Many spots that we end up in are narrow and confined rocky defiles in a sheer coastline, and has no swinging room. Most often we stern tie to shore, for which we have 800' of retired climbing ropes in about 7/16" diameter. But occasionally a stern anchor is required. Here I think either a 7.5kg claw or 6kg Rocna. These need lots of rode, 300' plus, so one can monkey around without worrying about shortage and scope, and so, god forbid, it can be used to kedge off a grounding. It also needs to be readily available, with convenient line storage.

The bow roller looks to be the URM-3 from Windline. It's sturdy and well made, holds the Rocna fine under way. Have to move the line chocks aft some distance to clear up space.

Stay tuned for pics.