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Thread: Ariel #24

  1. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Massachusetts
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    Like I mentioned before the area seems structurally solid. I will grind the area down to the glass, then drill out the rotten laminate, dry, fill with epoxy, and then coat the area with epoxy, finally bedding the shoe with 5200. This should do the trick as it has worked for others.

    "Gotta love a mystery! Have to follow where the evidence leads"

    I call it brain candy. Every active mind needs a futile project to spar with and I'm no exception.

  2. #77
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    Rudder Strap

    I removed the rudder today after first removing the rudder strap and tiller cap. The removal went as planned. I cleaned up the upper and lower shaft to get a closer look and they look great. The rudder having dried for a week now has begun to check a little bit, but it's shape is good and the checking is localized to one area on one side. I've decided to laminate the rudder with epoxy and cloth. If a shady job 40 years ago with polyester worked, epoxy done right should last another 40.

    Beneath the rudder strap was an extra hole presumably drilled by Pearson. It was at a weird angle so I'm assuming it was a first failed attempt to mount the strap. This extra hole would have certainly let water into the keel void. You can see in one of the photos below that there is a small opening in the center. THere was no bedding compound either. I'm amazed this boat floated as evidence lets itself be known from removing these items.

    The rudder strap has a good amount of wear and I may use it again, but would prefer not too. Does anyone know of a source for bronze stock that could used to make a new one? Also, the pins that I tapped out of the shoe and the strap are in poor shape. They are all bent from tapping them out and the ends needed to be drilled to remove them so they are too short to be re-used anyway. I suppose I could use a bronze bolt with the head cut off and just peen the ends. Anyone try this?

    BTW-My new Nissan 6HP 4-stroke gets delivered to my house Monday. Yippie! Just in time for our spring Nor'easter.



    You can see the extra hole in this picture. The extra hole was the same diameter as the other two holes, but this picture was taken after I had drilled out the two used to hold the strap. The laminate was solid with no evidence of laminate saturation.



    Look closely in the hole and you can see on the right where water would travel into the bilge.




    This is after grinding the area and drilling the extra hole. The plan is to prep and fill the area with epoxy making the future holes sealed from the bilge. You can see another place water could have entered in this photo on the right.
    Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-14-2007 at 08:18 PM.

  3. #78
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    Dec 2006
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    Rudder

    As mentioned in the previous post, I cleaned up the rudder shaft so I could get a better look and gauge its condition more accurately. I started to remove the filler placed at the access points for the bolts that tighten the rudder. I don't plan on adjusting the rudder at all and I am considering leaving these areas unfilled. I am going to leave the rudder in the house for a while to give it a better environment to dry before laminating.





    Here are some close-ups showing the condition of the upper shaft.







    Lower shaft.







    This is the localized area that checked a little while drying.
    Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-15-2007 at 08:54 AM.

  4. #79
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,621

    gudgeon

    Tim,
    Great detailed photos!!

    Check the rudder bolts if you can for deteriation of either at the rudder shaft. Different alloys could have been used there. The same can be said of the shaft where it sits unseen inside the tube where there is (dead) air and captured water. Many rudders have had corrosion there (as I understand it.) This is covered in the Manual.

    The gudgeon strap is interesting. Looks like there is bottom paint under where it was mounted? The extra hole is mystifying because it is so off!
    If there was some evidence of a second hole then of course there had to have been another strap there at one time.

    If you haven't noticed here yet, I'm a believer in Silicon Bronze (Everdur 655) for under salt water applications. If your boat is a salt water boat imho you can assume the bronze you have there in such good shape is 655 and all the other parts as well. (This may not be the case with the rudder shoe.)
    I have some 2" wide strips (bar) of s.b. It's definitely 'soft' enough to be bent into a U. The stuff is a true 1/8". But it looks like your strap is thicker.
    (If interested, get in touch thru the 'private messages, up above here.)

    Your shot of the strap shows good gold color, the chamfer, if that is original, looks like it was just done!! The rudder shoe on 338 was fastened with peened bronze rod. The trouble with that was/is available bronze rod is hardened somewhat. The normal stuff. I'm sure that there is soft peening rod somewhere, but you probably have to buy 20' of it. Is there a boat shop near you? What do you need, 6" of it? I peened the regular stuff and it was a PITA. I clamped on a big ole hunk of plate on the other side and banged away. Like with a hero peening hammer! There's no cheat so you've got the get the length of the thru pins just right.

    'Luxury' machine shops have to buy lengths of material that have to be stored.
    A shop that does boat work has to have the exact stuff you need.

    The pins are doing minimal 'work' so imco the chamfers should be quite small and not deep. It is better to have some material to peen against. A smaller head would make it easier to remove later. Like I say, you're not going to get much of a head with off the shelf s.b. rod. Annealing the rod must be real easy to do. All you have to do is heat it to 900-1200 degrees. Tell us how to do it, OK? Next time.
    Last edited by ebb; 04-15-2007 at 08:13 AM.

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    230

    Outboard Well

    My new Nissan 6hp 4-stroke was delivered to my house on Monday. Today I dragged it up to the cockpit and placed it in the motor well to see how it fits and as expected it fit perfect.

    Since I have not been able to start laying fiberglass due to the temps and the fact that it has not stopped snowing, sleeting, and raining for the past five days I decided to start ripping the outboard well apart. When I first looked at the well I noticed some fiberglass that was delaminating from the plywood. The test hole I made showed the area to be very wet and there was a gasoline smell coming from the hole. I started by just peeling the laminate off of the plywood. Some of it came off easy, but most of it required a chisel, hammer, wonder bar, and back pain to get it off. I just dangled my legs out of the well and went for broke.


    Here is a picture from the initial inspection made last December.



    This was taken today. It was raining while I was doing this which made a nasty job even nastier. You can see the Ariel soup that I have encountered in other parts of this boat.



    A little more progress. This was slow going for the most part but very rewarding because progress was obvious.



    The chisel and hammer mixed with careful technique worked well. The gasoline smell was very strong at this point and the pieces of foam and plywood I removed created slicks in the water seen below.



    The water and debris was removed with shop rags that were thrown out. I worried the gas smell would never leave my shop vac had I tried it.




    This is what it looked like after removing the rest of the laminate, plywood and foam. The gas smell was very strong even after I removed the water and debris. I filled up the well with water and dish soap and scrubbed and rinsed a few times. The smell was gone and I'm sure the grass under the boat will never grow again.




    The rain stopped for about ten minutes so I dried the area and took a grinder to it. There will be more grinding to prepare it for paint. I was thinking bilgecoat. Has anyone else tried that type of paint in the well or is there something better?




    All in all it was a nasty job, but once I finish prepping and painting, it will be worthy of the new engine and functional. I need to figure out how to keep my tanks level, I was thinking about an insert that can be removed so that I can change the configuration of the well to accomodate the engine laying sideways when I'm not there. I have a plug too which will also be used while I am not there.


    BTW- with the right seat this could constitute the enclosed head I dream of in an Ariel.
    Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-18-2007 at 05:13 AM.

  6. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Wilmington, NC
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    95
    Tim,

    Picture two reminds me of a soup I ate once

    I was surprised how "shallow" the new space under the old laz floor appeared. I always figured there was more room down in those nether regions. Maybe it's the perspective??

    So are you going to glass in a new sub-floor or just leave it as is?

    I think the wonder bar is one of the best tools ever made and your clever use chalks up yet another application!

    Great job and really nice pictures.

    Andrew
    Last edited by Westgate; 04-17-2007 at 02:33 PM.

  7. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    Massachusetts
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    That exact wonder bar and hammer were responsible for 90% of the demolition involved for our new kitchen.

    "are you going to glass in a new sub-floor or just leave it as is?"

    As is. I don't like unknowns, surprises or nether regions. I envision some sort of insert to keep my tank level and that's it. Also, there is a drain, but it in an awkward place that you can't inspect or reach when the engine is in the well. I'm not sure where or what, but a new drain of some sort is in order.

  8. #83
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    Could put a oneway drain into the OB well at your inside's lowest point. Could build that low point up a bit with epoxy filler so that low point will always stay drained. How about a teak or mahogany slatted deck replacement so you can have a place to sit gas cans, lunch hook, line, OB wellhole lid. etc?

    I remember the pungent odor of gasoline when the lazarette deck was being removed!

    You gotta seal that bulkhead there!!!

    If you are not racing, where does the OB live when not in the hole?

  9. #84
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    "Could build that low point up a bit with epoxy filler so that low point will always stay drained"

    Read my mind. I'll put that West System to good use :>)

    "If you are not racing, where does the OB live when not in the hole?"

    It fits sideways in the motor lazarette and at 55 pounds it should be no problem to take it out. There have been outboards stolen where I keep the boat in the past and a little lock on a lazarette cover will not deter a determined thief. If the lazarette is locked with the plug in the motor well, it should remove the temptation for the cancers in our society who take others' things.

    "How about a teak or mahogany slatted deck replacement so you can have a place to sit gas cans, lunch hook, line, OB wellhole lid. etc?"

    Yeah, I'm still working it out in my head, but that's the idea. I've started to draw up some ideas and I like the versitility of open compartments (slats.)

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    "You gotta seal that bulkhead there!!!"

    Do you mean the plywood bulkhead between the cockpit the lazarette? I peeled off the laminate and there is a large area of wood exposed. I think I'll let it dry out for a while then figure out what to do. Maybe one layer of cloth saturated in epoxy? I want to paint the inside of that lazarette a nice white so that it is smooth and easy to clean. Bilgecoat or something else? What did you use Ebb?

  11. #86
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    Sep 2001
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    San Rafael, CA
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    lazaroo

    I'm crazy and I overbuild (see the Gallery.)
    On 338 that bulkhead was VERY badly fitted. I had access under the cockpit and could wedge myself up close it. The factory had glassed it badly as well. They had bridged gaping edges with tabbing, or not at all - I found still raw (white) fabric and roving under the inside of the deck. They had only tabbed it, the rest was unseald plywood. No rot.

    I glassed the surface and retabbed the inside,
    [where I also reinforced the rudder tube.
    I believe water also got in at the under cockpit sole/rudder tube join. There was NO reenforcement there.]
    Now that I think about it: The cockpit sole flexes, therefor seal that joint with rubber.

    Also did the same in the laz.
    Can't remember if the bulkhead was glassed over or just tabbed. I think DFO's trired to seal it with doubtful remedies.

    While I noted some rot-like deterioration of the plywood decking in the laz, none was found on the bulkhead - even where the sodden foam was. My suggestion for this phenomenon is that there was prpbably saltwater encapsulated under the decking - but the little deck was more prone to fresh water accumulation.
    It should be glassed imco, especially now that you've open it up to expose the 'V'.
    I'm for glassing to tie it all together and extra epoxy sealing insurance.

    Found that I could reach up thru the well hole standing outside. That helped...sort of... could see up under there, get an arm in - instructive! Scrape out ancient dribbles of frozen snot, find where the top of the paper pattern should be, or push sticky wet fabric in place. Cuss-n-carry on.

    Like I say, I believe in paper patterns which allow you to cut the glass fabric pretty precisely. And I like the X-matt stuff because it stays stiff like cardboard when dry - and if you decide to put it in wet, if you're carefull, it will keep its shape. Even if darts have been cut into it to get it to fit in corners. Totally different thing than woven fabric. And if you've marked reference lines on it you can position the stuff exactly how your paper pattern said to, wet or dry.

    That end of the cockpit bulkhead has had a history of leaks for OB people on the Forum - it is an always wet lazarette It even leaks across the TOP under the sheet traveler bridge. So I double sealed the damn thing.
    I also incorporated the whole end of the cockpit inside - since I believed the cockpit could use some more support - by closing off most of the space between the cockpit well and the bulkhead. Crazy, I know!

    But leaks now? HAH! Don't think so!
    Last edited by ebb; 04-18-2007 at 01:08 PM.

  12. #87
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    Nov 2005
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    Ebb

    I had the same experience with a loosely installed bulkhead between the lazarette and the cockpit. On one particularly breezy day I ended up with a bilge full of water from the outboard well drain finding it's way around&over the bulkhead and into the bilge. water was above the cabin sole before we noticed the problem.

    folks who still have outboard wells might want to make sure the bulkhead is sealed right up to the deck. a small gap at deck level was the path from my outboard locker to the bilge....

    cheers,
    Bill
    Last edited by bill@ariel231; 04-18-2007 at 10:54 AM.

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
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    The layup begins...

    Well, after a week of neverending precipitation and temps too low to epoxy, it looks as though mother nature is taking pity on me. Last night I layed up the initial layers on my porch that will be flexed into place behind the hull and be adhered using thickened epoxy. This will allow me to have a solid flush layer to begin laminating against while maintaining the inch or so gap between the lead and the hull.


    This is the laminate after it cured overnight. It shows the half inch overlap. This piece will be flexed and placed in the space between the hull and lead ballast and then adhered to the backside of the hull with thickened epoxy. Doing this increases the number of epoxy saturated layers that adhere to the chamfered polyester resin. This will make a more seamless repair flush on the front and backside. It also creates a flat and secure surface to work against making the job easier. Once the epoxy cures I will start the layup. Could be later today, could be tomorrow depending when it is solid enough to work against.

    Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-19-2007 at 07:14 AM.

  14. #89
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    The piece fit well as expected. I have five wires holding it in place until the thickened epoxy cures, at which time the area will be coated with a thin coat of thickened epoxy so that it is fair with the backside of the hull. Then the area will be prepped and then the laminating begins. I'm going to miss the lead view I have so much enjoyed over the past few weeks.

    The copper wire was already attached when the disk was flexed into position inside the hull and immediately pulled tight.



    With the disk secured by the middle copper wire it stayed in position. I then attached the other four wires which pulled it evenly squishing the epoxy out.



    The excess epoxy was then removed.









    Last edited by Tim Mertinooke; 04-19-2007 at 02:34 PM.

  15. #90
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Tulsa, Oklahoma
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    118

    Excellent

    THat is some damn fine work Tim, my hat's off to you

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