New Deck No Recore a different take on Delamination

[Sprite]

Fellows we all know about the delamination thread,

Did anyone ever think of creating a new deck using the old
deck as a template? Line up the corecell over the cored
sections of the deck match all the holes put a layer of
polyester and a layer of mat resin etc flip it and repeat
the first part. I think this would be stronger than cutting
up the deck like swiss cheese and putting it back together
like a jigsaw puzzle. Has any one disconnected the deck
from the hull and deck joint. The question is what would it
take to do. Another issue is connecting on to the doghouse
reinforce with fiberglass and then grind it to match?


It would be a hell of a deck!!!



John

[ebb]

Whew, John,
I'm sure Mike would be the first to say, it ain't no big deal, recoring the deck. Think yor being seduced by what looks like a difficult job, first time.

Integrity is maintained by the inner skin. So you can remove the top skin and bad balsa. And you'd be doing it in stages. So you'd be 'tieing it together.' You need good tools, good materials, and an idea of how to proceed. Haven't done it myself, but if Mike says, then I can do.

A whole other deck on top would be that much more weight. You would be covering up, let's say, mushy tushy that is not in itself stable. Your extra deck would not have a good foundation. The sickness would not be excised. You'd be sailing with a failing! "OUT, OUT DAMN SPOT!" And what about thru fastening track and fittings?
Like bandaging a gangrenous wound, anticipatin' a miracle! yuchk!

[Mike Goodwin]

I wouldn't do it on a bet !
Pull the whole deck off , you must be kidding . You would need an overhead hoist on a trolley and that don't make it easier to get to the bad core , it's still fermenting away in there .

[Sprite]

after the new deck is done remove the old deck. How heavy could it be.
I was talking to an old timer on this and he made the suggestion of
doing it that way and putting in rods, making holes for them and then putting
the rods through the holes and bolting the ends so that you can maintain the
shape of the hull while your working.


John

any takers on this

[Mike Goodwin]

You remind me of a guy I used to share a shop with.
If there were 3 ways to do something , he would come up with a 4th way that was many times more difficult , 3 times as costly and never any better than the other ways that were easier and tried and true .

If you had the female mold for the deck and a proper OSHA approved shop , it would be an alternative . The old deck doesn't make a good 'plug' or male mold , so you need to pull a mold off the deck before you remove it .
BTW, you could buy a good Ariel with solid decks for the amount of money you are getting ready to spend , IMHO .

[Sprite]

[QUOTE=Mike Goodwin]so you need to pull a mold off the deck before you remove it .

This is what I already said pulling off a mold before detaching the deck. Then You would make the new deck so it over hangs a bit. I got from an old
gentleman who re did decks. What I was not clear on with him was what
do you do with the old dog house. Take out the roof?

a definite mess no doubt. I'd say remanufacturing.

John

[Sprite]

Might be easier to put a new core and exterior skin.

John

[c_amos]

Since you would be half way there anyway....

You could always continue on and make a mold of the hull while you were at it, and go into production.

[Mike Goodwin]

I read , 'use old deck as template' , there is a big difference in a deck template and deck mold.
It is more work to make the proper mold than recoring the actual deck .
I worked in tooling enough that I can say ," you dont want to go there" . The mold is generally stronger ( more layers of roving, mat and cloth ) than the deck will be .

[ebb]

SPIRIT.
Yeah, misread your original idea, and I believe you threw it in here for discussion. So...
If you HAD to do it, it could be done, but at a great cost in time amd material.
Assume the deck has it's shape and integrity (why would you have to replace the whole thing?) - you'd have to prep the deck to make a polyester mold. Repairing, sanding, waxing, pva. Laying in of gel coat, glass, back up strips, you don't want the form to change shape or curve. Then getting it off the deck, always a problem according to mold makers.

Once you have the mold then you have to alter it to incorporate a flange that would cup the toe rail and a flange that would go up the cabin side. That is my solution for attaching the new deck, there may be other ways. This deal would take time to create. It should be part of this first mold for accuracy, I don't know how to do it. Remember also that you have to fiddle with the core around the outer edge where the core peters out and the inside and outside skins become one strong multi lamination. Complicated in this case by the required lap joint at the rail. You would end up with a wider toerail and a band around the bottom of the trunk.

Now that the female mold is compleated, you will have already decided that the mold would have to be made in three or four pieces (or even six) because a whole deck mold would be too ungainly to stabilize - or even to lay up the laminate/composite in one shot. You might plan to use the bulkheads in the boat as mold break points so they could be used to strengthen the deck.

Then, you have to go thru the whole bloody process again! Myself had a recent adventure with both female and male molds. A lot of prep, hassle, and disappointment. Wouldn't recommend either except to a glutton for self punishment.

One little thing about the Ariel is that the whole top deck, cabin, cockpit/laz molding, the whole thing, it is a single piece, floats on top of the hull. None of the bulkheads are attached to the top!

Possibly the new front deck from the compression beam forward to the bow could be done in one piece. More likely it would have to be two halves, split on the centerline. You would make your composite (skin/pvc foam/inner skin) with plain frp flanges that would be attached over the original toerail and have a down flange that would attach to the compression bulkhead. In fact you will most likely have decided to remove the beam to make attachment easier. The down flanges of the two halves that meet in the center would add strength to the joint.

Then the port and starboard decks back to the cockpit and around the nose of the cabin trunk. The cabin trunk inside will have to be immobilized without pressure befor you begin anything so it doesn't budge when the side decks are removed. The easiest way to do this is to glue in struts with epoxy tabbing to the hull - they will be removed later.

You could do the front deck first, then cut in and frame or flange the forehatch so that you have access to the inside of the boat from the front. The side decks would attach to the across ship down flange of the frontdeck with their own flanges and also attach with an appropriate up flange to the cabin trunk and the overlapping flange cupping the toerail. These would be incorporated into the bulkhead.

I'm accused of gobbledegook very often by certain persons - I think I'm quite clear in what I say. UP flanges are the exterior, exposed flanges you would have to create on your deck pieces to marry them to the boat. UP flange is the cupping molding that would go over the toerail. UP flanges are those pieces of the deck molding that would attach to the cabin sides and front. DOWN flanges would be interior flanges that could meet and be glued together to form a rib, like down the center of the foredeck. Or flanges that could be incorporated into the main bulkhead. These DOWN flanges could be tabbings added later because of the unsquareness of the plywood bulkhead, the possible need to alter the liner, etc.

With a monoque construct you are destroying the integrity of the forces that depend on the skin for continuity when you cut huge holes out, which the replacing of the cored decks in this manner would do. In other words the foredeck is directly connected to the cockpit deck.

The port sidedeck is directly connected to the starboard.

The toerail supports the entire cabin trunk and the weight of the mast and rig. Remember, Pearson delivered the boat with a piece of fabric covered foam trim along the top edge of the compression bulkhead that extended along under the decks. The original bulkheads are only attached to the hull itself.

When the deck is cut up all that has to change. You will be dealing with some of the forces that a wooden boat has to gain back integrity. Planning in ribs and beams and supports will be part of it because imco you can't trust glueing pieces together to give you back the original 'walnut shell' structure.

Could be done, but what a piece of work!

{Since the whole top of the boat is attached 1 1/2 inches down from the top of the toerail on the OUTSIDE - not only does the new deck have to go up over the top, as mentioned above, but substantial laminations will be needed from the top down the outside covering the joint. Tying the bundle together} Can of worms.

[Mike Goodwin]

I'll second what Ebb said !

[mbd]

Ebb, you make a deck recore sound like a walk in the park!