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Thread: Insulating the hull questions.

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Solomons Island Md.
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    142
    Im not trying to be overly negative on this because this is a great comfort, sound and temp insulator and it is more attractive than bare bumpy wall and I know alot of work went into it. So keep us informed on how it holds up and keep an eye on what's going on underneath and if there isnt a serious mold issue or water you're ok.
    Commander 5

  2. #32
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
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    3,606

    Arma

    Seems that all named Armaflex ntrile foams are closed cell. (HT, NH, UT, AR, etc.)
    Buna-N, NBR, Nitrile is a copolymer of butadiene and acrylontrile (ACN). These are tweaked for elasticity and crosslinking during sulphur vulanization....as well as for tensile strength, hardness, abrasion resistance and vapor impermeability. "The ACN content of Nitrile rubber material can range from 16% to 45% with a general purpose compound usually containing around 34%...." www.timcorubber.com/rubber-materials/nitrile.htm

    Which is simply to pointout that even AP-Armaflex formulations will produce different foams. Small cell, large cell and different foaming gases.... with Armacell - on the green side - using carbon-dioxide as the blowing agent. Nitrile's main attribute is it's broad range resistance to petrochems and solvents (except aromatics.*)

    Maybe temperature and moisture cycling of foam in use tends to break down some formulas and not others. There are different types of nitrile yielding highly branched, or linear, or crosslinked (AR-Armaflex) polymers. Which is to say that maybe not all Armaflex products over the years are the same.
    While nitrile foam is kown for its resistamce to many chemicals, it has a poor reputation for weather resistance. Ozone & UV. you can't leave it uncoated when used outdoors.
    And there could have been bad batches, as you say - that Armacell doesn't admit to.
    There could have been an Armacell foam used in your HVAC installaions that is not an AP-Armaflex.
    Synthetic plastic rubber is not glass or stainless steel. Imco there always has to be the possibility of water or some vapor migrating thru plastic - given certain specific conditions.


    google: Armacell - Shell Deer Park, Houston Texcas
    Where two 82' diameter spheres (containing continuously cooled butadiene at near freezing) were covered in 3" of AP-Armaflex.
    The whole point is to control the temp of the contents (3" of Armaflex has an R value of 8.4)
    The spheres were first coated with a fire proofing epoxy that itself expands into foam at very high temps.
    Would think that the glue for the Armaflex has to be something more than mere contact cement.
    After the spheres were covered with AP-Armaflex, a blanket of UV rubber coating was sprayed over the foam.
    This is a highly engineered installation, these petro guys aren't fooling around.
    Has to be guaranteed to last at keast few years in Texas sun and weather...


    Imco, the word INTERCONNECTED ususlly refers to OPEN CELL foam.
    The gas bubbles in closed cell foam aren't connected.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................
    * If any of these solvents listed here were used to prep or clean parts of a HVAC install, they could have attacked nitrile AP-Armaflex:
    turpentine, rubber solvent C9, benzene, and xylene, naptha, toluene. Xylene is a constituent of gasoline.

    Solvent based CONTACT CEMENT is likely to be formulated with some aromatic solvents - chemicals that can brealdown nitrile rubber.
    (So, for example, if the cement is encapsulated in closed cell nitrile foam pipe wrap.....and the solvent cannot escape
    .....the solvent in that scenario might eat the rubber and open closed cells into a sponge.)
    Last edited by ebb; 11-14-2013 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    323
    Paul,

    Thanks for your comments. But look at the text again above the air conditioner pic and you'll see that you are looking at is its storage spot on the boat, not where it's operated. It sits topside on the forward hatch to do that! It works like one of the Carryon units I used to own, but much smaller and half the weight, and an eighth the price. Plus, you can easily store it in unused space in the chain locker, only intrudes 10 inches or so. But you have to make an inlet and outlet air separator (like the Carryon units have) that fits on the front and goes down through the front hatch. Works like a charm and setup takes less than 5 minutes! Pics on the air conditioning posts if you are interested.
    Last edited by Hull376; 11-14-2013 at 06:03 PM.
    Kent

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    323
    After several years service the insulation job is holding up fine. Panels have not come unglued from the hull, the plastex is still stuck fast to the Armacel foam, and the boat is noticeably easier to cool, even when it's above 95 degrees and direct sun. And no water absorption. I'm a happy camper. And cooler to boot. One of my concerns was whether the adhesive discussed in detail above would come loose over time in very high cabin temperatures. That hasn't happened yet after two years. Mold doesn't grow very well on the plastex either. You'll see a little mold when Houston does it's tropical thing for an extended period, but no where near the growth on paint. Oh, and it's more comfortable in the winter, only need one 1600 watt heater when it was 27degrees.
    Last edited by Hull376; 09-06-2015 at 07:26 PM.
    Kent

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    323

    Five Years Later-- Armaflex and 564 Adhesive Insulation

    Long term (5years) status of my insulation:

    1. Armaflex still tightly bonded to the hull with Ebb's wonder water base adhesive
    2. No water absorption
    3. No mold
    4. No deterioration of the foam or the pvc sheet.
    5. No out gassing smells of any kind in the cabin. My experience with other old boats is that the smelly ones have smelly coverings and non green mastics. A few have science projects in the bilge!

    I'm very happy with the long term results so far. None of the concerns expressed by other posters have materialized.
    Last edited by Hull376; 06-02-2017 at 07:31 PM.
    Kent

  6. #36
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    323
    Nine years later, still no issues with the insulation method described above. And the pvc sheet is still bright white, no smells, stuck firmly to the hull
    Kent

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Rafael, CA
    Posts
    3,606
    Kent
    Lucky find!! It's still here with a great rep from the flooring guys.
    Resilient is the word used by the first website. APAC564.

    But what really gets attention is that it doesn't support mold. Let's
    hope it's a vinegar Ph, and not something lethal that's beneficial.

    Glad we're here. Stay healthy -- and R E S I L I E N T !!
    Last edited by ebb; 05-21-2021 at 04:59 PM.

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