Exterior Wood Finishes [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association Forums

marymandara

02-01-2004, 11:46 AM

No matter how pickled in varnish, wood on a boat goes thru considerable variantions in moisture content and moves a lot more than one would expect! A lot of guys use epoxy to glue, but I don't like it too well as it doesn't move with the part as well as could. My money's on the Poly glues, like Gorilla Glue, etc. . Nasty, stinky, foamy stuff. Actually, the foamy goop is what happens as it cures. Especially on an open-grained wood like mahogany, you don't want it getting on any parts you don't plan on...it will never come out of the grain. Lots of masking is in order! The incredibly strong bond that results has a bit of flexibility, so two parts expanding and contracting at different rates (whether due to material differences or a simple difference in mass between parts of same material) won't break down the joint.

In grain fillers, there are a couple of different ways to go---either the clear poly fillers, or a traditional laquer-based wood putty that can be thinned with LT to desired consistency. I like the Laquer-based if I have time to allow days for the solvents to gas off well (regardless what it says on the can). Spread on/work in with a bondo spreader, and wait until it is fairly stiff before burnishing off the excess with a piece of burlap...wait until it has had lots of time to harden and offgas fully, and then do your final sanding before varnish.

Dave

willie

02-01-2004, 01:03 PM

I did some more digging and found this advice from Epifanes:

FOR TROPICAL WOOD, i.e. TEAK, IROCO, MAHOGANY, ETC.

Surface preparation

Wood, especially oily resinous tropical wood, contains substances that may cause problems during and after varnishing, i.e. slow drying, discoloring, blistering and peeling. These problems may be overcome by executing a thorough surface preparation. The wood must be well cleaned and degreased beforehand with a good degreaser or denaturated alcohol. Never use water or products containing water as these may activate substances in the wood fibers. Wood contains moisture naturally. When varnishing however, the percentage of moisture in the wood must not exceed 13-14%. Make sure that the wood is dry. The successful application of clear varnish on exterior teak surfaces has proven to be inadequate. Long term protection of these surfaces may be achieved by applying a two-component isolating coat for tropical wood or by applying a vaporous system allowing the potential acids and oils to breathe through the coating without delaminating the varnish system. EPIFANES Woodfinish is a one-component finish specifically designed for application on these oily tropical woods.

One-component system

On bare wood, apply the first coat of EPIFANES Woodfinish, thinned 10% with EPIFANES Thinner for Paint & Varnish. Sand with 320 grit dry abrasive paper.
After 24 hours curing time, apply at least four more coats of EPIFANES Woodfinish, thinned 0-5%. Allow at least 24 hours drying time between coats. If subsequent coats are applied within 72 hours, sanding between coats is not required. If applied after 72 hours, lightly sand with 320 grit or finer wet abrasive paper.
Maintenance

We recommend applying one or two maintenance coats when loss of gloss is noticed. The weather and atmospheric conditions to which the finish is subjected will determine the amount of time between maintenance coats. At least one coat annually should be applied.

:p

ebb

02-01-2004, 10:35 PM

To acheive an epiphany of glitz, with the least amount of work and prayer, why would I chose anything else? Instead of painting my new coaming boards with house paint I'll baptise them with Epifanes. :D

drp

10-22-2004, 05:03 PM

Hi - I recently purchased an Ariel that has been sitting outside, uncovered, for six Maine years. Not in bad shape overall, but the external wood is in rough shape - the finish is gone, the wood's grain is open and a bit separated, and the wood is darkened (greyed). What should (can) be done to restore it? Also - the pieces for the cabin hatch are a bit warped and fit in their guides a bit loosely. Is this fit normal, and can the warp be corrected?
I'm very new to this, so any help/tips/advice would be appreciated!

tcoolidge

10-24-2004, 11:02 AM

Hi
The wood will usually clean up nicely with a little work. (aka a lot of sanding)
You can wash it first with TSP to get surface grime off , then a dilute bleach to kill whatever mold is growing then it's time to get out the sander and take it down to bare wood. Much debate over varnish/Cetol/teak sealer for a finish on this site and elsewhere (do a search for all the opinions). My nutshell synopsis 1) Varnish is the most work but looks and lasts the best, 2) Cetol is simple, quick and easy to maintain but lacks the beauty of ten layers of varnish, 3) Oils protect the wood but don't give the shiny, glossy finish some people want. My choice was Cetol. I'd rather spend my time sailing than varnishing.
Warp in the hatchboards seems inevitable over time. A little looseness is necessary to allow for swelling and getting the boards in and out. If they are too loose or warped the easiest fix is to make new ones.
Have fun.
Tom

commanderpete

10-25-2004, 10:21 AM

That's good advice on surface prep.

A couple of photos might help, particularly of any seperated areas.

First thing to do is remove the coaming boards and take them home. Shouldn't be too difficult unless sealant was used. Give a holler if you run into difficulty.

I'd like to see the hatch boards too. They could be replacements.

You might want to cut out a piece of plywood to put in the companionway for the winter so you can take the boards home too.

ebb

10-25-2004, 06:17 PM

Golly, I've said this befor:
Cetol looks like Cetol. It was probably named after viseral whale relief. I personally think the smokey caramel look is exceeding unattractive. And is as recognizable as a product on your boat as Mickey Mouse is Disney.

On the other hand Bristol Finish is bright and up scale as twenty coats on a Herreschoff classic. I saw a folkbote get dolled up this summer and there is no way you can tell that this finish is not varnish. NO WAY, trust me!

Whether it has the same who gives a damn seasonal recoating schedule I don't know. Look in to it, ok? Three four coats no sanding a day(?) The difference is like technicolor vs black and white. (was gonna say Sepia, but none of you children even know who Randolph Scott was!)

An Ariel or Commander deserves better than Cetol!

(this is NOT to say that Cetol is inferior. It's great, I've used it, but it really looks horrible compared to varnish or Bristol Finish on mahogany.
YAS, That's what we need. More unsubstantiated O pinions!!)

willie

10-26-2004, 12:41 PM

Did the search on combings, and WOW. Now i gotta take mine off and bring em home! It never ends! I think about 10 coats of epifanies will be good. Might have to look into this Bristol Finish though....

So how about some tips on removal? (probably here somewhere if i dig enuf)I see some screw heads , and some bungs... also some PO holes i want to fill. Any woodworking tips with those to make em blend in? Also, how are the blocks attached to the cabin? Have to do some more poking around.
Ave M. had cetol everywhere, even on the winches! Has to go. :p

Dan Maliszewski

10-26-2004, 01:48 PM

Avast,

The coaming blocks on Adele M are attached to the cabin from the inside with four long wood screws through the cabin exterior wall just aft of the deadlights. A few years ago I laminated up some new ones to duplicate the old fossils which were rotbound. Some of the most complex angles I've ever worked with, but they came out OK. If I had to do it again, I would just make up a simple right angle return like some other captains have did and be done with it already.

Captain Ebb: Randolph Scott - Ain't he the father of ragtime jazz? And that Sepia fellow, he was that tall robot in the Starwars movies, nes pas? I ain't no kiddie; heck, I got neckties older than my Ariel. I just can't remember where I put 'em.......

Carry on....

commanderpete

10-26-2004, 03:06 PM

Over the years I've used varnish, then Cetol, then Bristol Finish, and back to varnish.

CETOL

I think it looks O.K. I used to get many compliments on my beautiful "varnish" during the years I used Cetol. It looks much better on light woods such as Philipine mohogany than it does on dark woods like teak.

You need to use both the base coat and the gloss topcoat. If you keep putting on layers of the base coat it will look muddy. Go with 3 coats of base and 3+ coats of gloss.

I never tried Cetol Light, which has less pigment. However, the pigment is probably the UV protection.

The only real benefit of Cetol over varnish is that you don't have to sand between coats. However, I eventually decided that this was no great advantage.

First, you don't really have to "sand" between coats. You just need to give it a quick rub with a Scotchbrite pad and wipe it with a tackcloth. This can't possibly take more than a few minutes.

Second, you WANT to "sand" between coats, no matter what product you use. You need to rub out the dust, bugs, runs, etc. that get onto the surface overnight. Its the only way to get a superior finish.

BRISTOL FINISH

The stuff sounded great. "Multiyear performance." No sanding. Best of all, you can apply multiple coats in a day. I could do all of my brightwork in a weekend. I took the wood off the boat, stripped it down, and put on 8 or 10 coats of the stuff.

Couple of things about Bristol Finish.

1) Its expensive

2) The fumes are deadly. Need a respirator.

3) It dries almost instantly, no going back over it. You need good brush technique.

4) I think the color is a little yellow.

5) Its very finiky. I was doing 16 pieces at once, indoors. Two pieces came out badly after one of the coats--the two closest to the window. I fixed them, but you might have more trouble using this stuff down at the boatyard.

Nevertheless, I was pretty happy after I finished.

A few months later the stuff started to fail. It didn't lift or peel. It just started to....disappear. The problem began at the tops of the handrails and coaming boards, which are most exposed to sun, and spread. I touched it up for a while, which is not convenient since you have to mix up a batch of the 3 part product. Eventually I gave up and stripped it all off.

I've since read a number of reports on the internet from people who are very unhappy with Bristol Finish. Their complaints to Bristol Finish were met with hostility. They'll just tell you it was applied improperly.

In my case I followed the instructions to the letter. I applied it under ideal conditions indoors.

To be fair, I've also heard some glowing reports from people who've used it.

You have to decide whether you want to risk it.

VARNISH

It really is gorgeous stuff. Like brushing on pure maple syrup. I go with the Epifanes High Gloss.

Longevity seems about the same as with Cetol. I don't know if they've been tested side by side.

I just don't feel that varnish is any more work than Cetol. If I thought there was something better and easier than varnish I would use it.

I'm not sure why this subject engenders so much passion. People defend their choice of product with a nearly fanatical devotion.

Actually, I think proper technique is far more crucial than your choice of product. The most important thing is keeping up with it.

Brightwork is part of what seperates our boats from all those floating clorox bottles out there.

John

10-26-2004, 03:54 PM

Regarding removing anything left on your coamings: I have used a heat gun with great success on my grabrails. I bought the cheap one from Harbor Tools but you can go first class if you want. Warm the varnish up and gently scrape it off. It's like magic.

8 coats of epiphanes or z-Spar Flagship will make your heartstrings twang. Iused red mahogany filler/stain underneath and it worked well. Cleanliness is everything.

Ebb.....How do you keep your winch stands looking so good??

Tony G

10-26-2004, 06:41 PM

C-Pete,

There you go flaunting those rub-rails again! When, man, when do we get to hear the story. Also, I must ask, can I see the inside of Grace's toe-rail in a current picture?

'Enunimous'

P.S. I have no idea who this Tony G character is...

ebb

10-27-2004, 12:33 AM

Hmmmm....interesting whatr you say, C'pete, about Bristol Finish. I would urge anybody who's looking into this to check out the MSDS, and since it is the company that provides information, double the bad parts. I'm persuaded not to use it now. Solvents are the real free radicals in the modern health horror department. Health depends on just how much your immune system can tolerate. And if you are trying to boost yours, like I am with pills and potions, then you know you are already in trouble.

Can't remember how volitile Cetol was, but it is marketed by a company called Sikkens, which might tell us something. Remember that danish teak oil called Deks Ole (?) man, that would knock you down too. I might be looking for a waterbourne finish when 338 gets made up. And Z-Spar Captains varnish you religously had to add, and keep adding as you painted, that potent and pepperminty T-10 to every pot of paint. Think I got high on that stuff.

A lot of good ole chemicals are banned in California, but it ain't no problem getting any lethal concoction from the underground. Tin bottom (the antifouling the Navy uses and that creates a zone devoid of life under your marina berth), for example, is just as available as Trinidad, and cheaper. Hasn't a floor product company broken into the marine market with water cleanup no Voc urethane finish? Maybe someone should try Zar on their coamings!

Whatever system, you should use their paste filler on mahogany. With regular varnish anyway no matter how many coats the pores will never fill and flatten out. Filled wood means less coats for that smooth sexy sheen.

Don't know what to tell ya, John, the winch mounds have never been touched by me. Must be why they look so good. But the boat is under a tent (most of the time - winter's coming!) A good bit of advice therefor is to make up some of those blue Sunbrella antimacassars you often see on powerboats. Real varnish (you're nuts to do it!!) should particularly be protected from sun and rain with a coverpoo.

www.epifanes.com/quanda.htm

will give you longwinded (Scott and ebb style) advice on varnishing, especially prep. Guys are right here, Epifanes has the best rep and is most likely being used on all the gorgeous yachts you see.

ebb

10-27-2004, 07:49 AM

That ugh in the last post doesn't work. So get on their site and punch the Q & A bar. E. is very much a traditional varnish with all the curtaining and bubbling problems spar varnish has. Varnish is probably formulated for grizzled chain smoking professionals who've spent their life breathing solvent fumes and learning how to barely control the syrup they spread on wood. It's a conspiracy in providing employment for yard workers.

You can check on how good the guy is by running your fingers along the underside of a rail to feel for any bumps there.

willie

11-04-2004, 03:00 PM

Wasn't too hard to remove them, but i did have to crawl in under the cockpit to reach the fwd. bolts. Kinda felt like winney the poo stuck in rabbits hole. Thought i might be there till i lost about 40 lbs.! Thought about calling the xo on the cell to come and fetch me out, but it was out of reach in the cabin! All the time, the wind was howling about 35 knots, and biggest waves i've observed on the river. Figured out why they put in all the dams--keeps the water from blowing back up the river to Lewiston! Good day to stay in port and work on her.

Also removed my monster winch pads, with all the hardware/winches. Never had a winch apart, but am about to. So what are the recommendations for servicing Barlow winches? I've seen something somewhere about dismantling winches and greasing them up.

So now with the wood removed, sure looks like a good time for some deck painting. It never ends!!! Will have to wait for spring and warmer weather for that project. Might take that long to get it ready.

Hey, and while i'm on here, Christmas is just around the corner, and i still have a bunch of Ariel t-shirts..... :rolleyes:

commanderpete

11-05-2004, 11:28 AM

Here's something on Barlow winches. The company is out of business.

http://www.arco-winches.com/barient.html

There is probably a schematic for your winch somewhere on the internet.

You don't need a "winch service kit" they sell. You probably already have the proper grease and oil, and an old toothbrush. Go easy on the grease.

You ordinarily want to replace the pawl springs, but you can re-use them if they happen to be an unusual size.

It's a simple procedure to service them, but its easy to forget how they go back together. Its better to do one at a time for that reason, so you have the other as a guide.

Say willie, somebody once told me you can tell the wind direction by looking at birds and cows. Birds stand facing the wind and cows stand with their butts in the wind. Any truth to the cow part? Only cows around here are in the grocery store.

willie

11-07-2004, 05:50 PM

Went down to the boat today, with plans of taking off the stern railing (pushpit? is that what it's called?). It was just tooooooo nice to stay tied up.
After about half an hour of standing on my head in the laz (i can't spill either) decided it was time to get creative and figure out how to rig something up to take the place of the winches, as they were sitting at home with the coamings! It was really a 150 day, with wind about 10 knots, but decided that by using the smaller jib, i could route the sheets to the inside blocks, and use the genoa track eyes to put some friction on the sheets, then take a couple round turns and half hitch around the stanchion (can't spell that one either!) on either side, as all the cleats were at home also. Worked ok, wouldn't want to do it all the time though. Ended up holding jib and main sheets and tiller working my way back into the slip, which was fun. Didn't have to row, so that helped! So, after i got that out of my system, the railing removal went great. It has one foot that's busted loose from the leg, so need to get it welded up. I haven't decided if it's stainless or just chromed something?? Have to take to in to the expert and find out.

Oh, cmdr. Pete.... our cows usually point toward the hay truck in the winter! ;) If it isn't around, then they do point away from a fresh winter breeze. Horses too. :rolleyes: And thanks for the great info., on winches, etc. I have to figure out something to hold the shaft, as all i have is a locking handle. Shouldn't be too tough to do, just haven't really thought about it much. Too busy sailing!!

Bill

11-07-2004, 07:01 PM

Hey Bill,

FYI - West Marine stores usually have a library of schematics of every modern winch and will give you a photo copy of the one you need. Of course they carry repair kits, too. :)

c_amos

01-21-2005, 08:20 AM

As stated above, the directions say;

EPIFANES Woodfinish, thinned 10% with EPIFANES Thinner for Paint & Varnish

Posting to this old thread, after the requisite search, is to testify to the importance of the word EPIFANES before the word Thinner in that simple sentence.

DO NOT do AS I HAVE DONE, and substitute WEST Marine thinner!!!!!!!!

I have now sanded my companion boards three times to bare wood, and wiped with various solvents to remove the traces of the EPIFANES that was laced with West Marine thinner (which says 'for varnish' in the title by the way).

Apparently it contains mineral spirits, which are haunting my wonderful EPIFANES finish and causing it to; fail to set, gum, and the first time (when it was mixed directly) even to crinkle like a crinkle finish. :eek:

This tale of woe is not offered to elicit sympathy, for I should not have disregarded the directions, but rather as a cautionary tale.

Bill

01-21-2005, 10:15 AM

We feel your "EPIFANES." A good cautionay tale . . .

ebb

01-21-2005, 11:21 AM

Epifanes is great varnish, but it is a system. You have to buy all the parts. GOTCHA. Checkout a very nicely presented Q & A page on their site, has a lot of specific and general info on the art of varnishing.

Just went past a new marine cataloger site who exclusively stocked System Three products. System Three has specialized for a decade in products less toxic. IE safer, better to breathe and be around. Aimed at the DIY and the amateur. Which is absolutely the ethecal way of marketing potentially dangerous material. Waterbourne epoxies and LPU. I think they're gaining on those who have convinced us that toxic solvents are the holy grail of a 'professional finish.' This is not to imply that Epiphane's varnish thinner is ugly - can't find an MSDS on the net. But it is to point out that System Three's varnish is thinned with plain ole mineral spirits.

Wish I'ld gotten into their stuff. I would recomend someone take a look at their products and in the forums befor copping out to the campball-soup stuff at yer local 9/11..oh sorry, 7/11 Marine.

John

01-22-2005, 08:04 AM

To add some of my poor experience to the mix: I have been haunted by dust for years.. I get one good layer of varnish down and come back to see all these particles in the glare of my beeuuutiful piece. I have filtered the varnish and sprayed the air, mostly with little result.

Last year I was privileged to be given a tour of a really first class shop of a furniture builder. What an eye opener. Anything that generated dust had a suction table pulling the dust into a collecter system. And the finishing room...The finishing room only had two doors. And each door had a large filter in it. The room was kept under positive pressure and we were encouraged not to use the door connecting the finish room with the shop. In the finishing room, they had large spray booths and they sucked overspray up so it didn't wander. Their work comes out looking like a mirror. Of course, they also use a lot of lacquer and shellac which also dry faster, but conditions are the major difference I saw.

So if I can build this finishing room off the side of the garage........

Mike Goodwin

01-22-2005, 08:50 AM

I have been using Epifanes for well over 15 years and never a problem.
The trouble with 'mineral spirits', is there is no standard as to what they are .
As in all mineral spirits are not created equal. Mineral spirits are for cleaning only .

I use Epifanes thinner when needed and I use plain old steam distilled turps, with no adverse effects. I use Petitt #120 thinner also with no adverse effects.

I avoid all WEST products for the same reasons I don't eat at McDonalds , drink Bud or use AOL. I feel they are all overpriced hype and no value for your good old US dollar .

Epifanes is not cheap , but it works better than all the rest .
If I could still get it , I would use Callahan's Chiltered varnish .

To me, WEST is for people who have Goodyear tires on their Crown Victoria because that is what they came with and the people at Ford must know something they don't know . It's like those little lunchs for kids with the crackers, cheeze and meat all in one little packet . ;>)

ebb

01-22-2005, 09:06 AM

Was getting a non-prescription at the one and only pharmacy in a small town on the coast I go for my five year checkup. There standing in line for the white coat was a woodworker I've known for four decades. He has achieved world recognition for his furniture designs and his pieces get lovingly dusted in comtemporary museums. I walked once into his shop. He was dancing around a large walnut dining table top with a pair of giant beltsanders, one in each hand. The sight was amplified by the fact he is rather a small guy, and the two machines pirroetted smoothly and dustyly together over the surface. Could probably have put an eight foot straightedge at any angle across it and it would be dead flat. Awesome! I was IMPRESSED. He's the one what gave me the formula for a three part oil finish he used on 90% of his stuff leaving the shop.

Every once in awhile an apprentice or a student would be there in the shop wearing a partical mask. But I never saw him wearing one, never, and he was a smoker too.

Cautionary tales don't do no good, why would we have so many of them? I always manage to forget my mask until I start coughing. In the quiet of the night I can hear my lungs squeeling and whistling. Just a tiny bit of dust these days and I pay the price for the music. Break out into a claustrophobic sweat absolutely sure my lungs have filled up.

The famous craftman looked gray and resigned. He was getting drugs for his emphysema. Empysema is incurable.

dasein668

01-22-2005, 05:23 PM

Epifanes is great varnish, but it is a system. You have to buy all the parts. GOTCHA. Checkout a very nicely presented Q & A page on their site, has a lot of specific and general info on the art of varnishing.

I've heard lots of horror stories about using non-Epifanes thinner with Epifanes varnish, but I have never had a spot of trouble using cheap (Blue and gold can, 4.50 a gallon) mineral spirits with either their standard varnish or their Woodfinish Gloss (no-sand varnish). FWIW....

As Mike points out, mineral spirits is a pretty vague descriptor, and is probably best suited for cleaning only, but I seem to have hit on a local brand that has caused no troubles for me...

c_amos

02-08-2005, 06:15 PM

I have been sanding, and grinding and generally not having much fun of it for a little bit now (varnish gumming up, weather getting in the way etc).

Well, tonight I put the first coat of thinned epoxy on my combing boards, as the base for the Epifanes that will cover them.

I say back, and just stared at them.. Maybe it was the acetone fumes, maybe it was the visions of looking at the finished product with the summer breeze at my back, but they look beautiful.

The effort spent to do the wood right seems effort well spent. Even at this stage. I pray the finished product proves to be the 'wood done right'.

also,

I am sure this is common knowledge to all, but I had not know until today (probably even on this forum somewhere and I just missed it although I now think I have now read most every thread here)

White vinegar makes an excellent solvent to remove epoxy from one's hands, if you prematurely remove your gloves.

And a third thing......

I appreciate your indulgence......

I really am thankful to have a place to come type these things,
where I know there are others who can appreciate, and understand
why....

Thanks. :)

willie

02-08-2005, 07:31 PM

I finally finished my boards, and winch pads. Must have put 10 or 15 coats of Epifanes on....at least it seemed like it!Sand a day, varnish a day. My little helpers thought i'd never quit! Then WE had a week or so of early spring like weather,so spent a day working like crazy getting the boat back together. Then, wouldn't ya know it, it turned off cold again and snowed. Couldn't believe it! Sheesh! Anyway, i'm ready now for the next warm spell.

I even went and bought some sunbrella and made some covers for everything before taking them back to the boat. Easier to measure everything close to the sewing machine. When i told the xo what the plan was, she got this screwedup look on her face, and said "you can't make them fit like that, going around the winch pads,over this, around that, and,and,and...!! I'm not doing it, YOU can learn to sew!"

So i did.
And they turned out great. But i have new respect for the MRS.

When i got the boards back on the boat, i fit the covers, and installed snaps. Used little stainless screws to install one half on the wood at various locations, and then installed the other half in the covers so they fit pretty good. Had a couple of days with gusts to 45, and they stayed put, so guess they'll work. I'll take the camera next trip if anyone is interested.

So being new to this boat thing, and varished wood and covers, and sunbrella.... a couple questions.
Will the covers wear out from the sun faster than the varnish? Might be easier to varnish, than make new covers!! Will they really help much? Seems like they should if uv is the problem with the varnish disappearing. I know the tiller varnish from this summer is about gone. So it will be interesting to see how the coamings fare with the covers. Does sunbrella shed water? Or are the covers just gonna create a little microenvironment for mold and meldew under them? :rolleyes:
I'm ready to go SAILING!!

Bill

02-08-2005, 09:21 PM

Our last sail & tiller covers lasted about 25 years . . .

Mike Goodwin

02-09-2005, 04:55 AM

[QUOTE=willie]I finally finished my boards, and winch pads. Must have put 10 or 15 coats of Epifanes on....at least it seemed like it!Sand a day, varnish a day.

Why are you sanding Epifanes??

willie

02-09-2005, 06:16 AM

Well, it was actually a very light sanding, with 320 grit. Guess i did it 'cause it says to! Now that i've done it, looking back i think i'd just put on varnish, maybe sand down the next to last coat to remove any imperfections, and then put on a nice last coat. Sanding between every coat, no matter how light, just makes dust you have to clean off. How do you do it?

commanderpete

02-09-2005, 06:36 AM

You get conflicting advice as to whether you need to sand between coats. Some say to sand between each coat to give it "tooth." Others say you only need to sand between the finish coats.

I think it depends on how much time elapses between coats. If it sits more than a day, I would rough it up.

One problem with sandpaper is that the sand comes off the paper, making it more dusty.

I kinda like the Scotch-Brite pads. They come in different grades.

commanderpete

02-09-2005, 06:41 AM

I also like the sanding sponges for heavier sanding, especially on curved areas.

Sears sells their own brand which is cheaper.

To get rid of the dust I'll first brush it off and then wipe it with a piece of old T-shirt very lightly moistened with alcohol.

The Sunbrella sheds water and dries quickly. Its gonna work great.

No covers for the handrails? :p

ebb

02-09-2005, 07:54 AM

Great thread, great tips, guys,
You're probably not using gloves for the varnish, but I would for ANY two-part:
If you are not in the field, good ole soap and water will wash off fresh epoxy. Liquid handwash dish soap ('with Grapefruit Seed Extract, Aloe & Vitamin E') works fine, must be the vitamin e. We all use latex or vinyl gloves - I get epoxy above the cuff on the lower forearms, in the hair, ALL the time and often don't get to it til after the operation is over:

Gojo type orange hand cleaners work great and the pumice helps scrub off half hard epoxy. My favorite is Permatex PARR Paint and Resin Remover in the 15 oz bottle. It's handy. It is a looser formula so you can get your hands and arms clean of the cleaner easier when you're away from water just using paper towels. Doesn't seem to have anything nasty in it.

I buy latex gloves by the box, like them because they are thin and intimate. Recently HAD to use some vinyl ones. They have a thicker smoother not-so-snug feel, yet have not found that to be a problem. When wearing gloves you are not aware of the epoxy you're getting on your hands, so I'm continualy semi-psychotically 'drying' them all the time. What I've noticed is that the vinyl wipes off MUCH easier and drier. So I don't transfer epoxy as much to handles and cups and cans and stuff. Really like the difference.

willie

02-09-2005, 12:24 PM

Covers for handrails, and the new c-way hatch doors, are in the works. Sheesh! I also made a sailbag out of sunbrella, for the main while it's off. Actually turned out pretty good, for a beginner seamstress!
Jr. and i were measuring up the handrails--i have small ones up by the fwd. hatch also, which keep the jib sheets from catching....
Anyway, i had just told him to be careful with the tape measure, when thump thump, splash. Wish i had a picture of the look on his face! (He's 4 1/2 now)
About an hour later, i did the same with the screwdriver, so then he felt better. Think we'll look into scuba gear..... :rolleyes:

Bill

02-09-2005, 01:43 PM

". . . thump thump, splash." Ah yes, the sound of things hitting the water. The area around my slip includes numerous screwdrivers, fasteners, winch handles, eye-glasses and even two mobile phones! :eek: Yes, two.

Mike Goodwin

02-09-2005, 02:47 PM

Willie,
The epifanes I use does not require sanding if recoated within 72 hrs.
I lightly sand the next to last coat to take out the inevitable "booger" and kamikaze bugs , but that is all. Never had a problem with this technique in 15 years of use.

CupOTea

03-06-2005, 06:09 PM

Don Casey's book - This Old Boat - has a relatively thorough section on brightwork. He talks mainly about teak and CupOTea IV has the original mahogany coamings (getting ready to start varnishing them with Epiphanes in two weeks) but he says wait until the last coat or two to bother sanding between coats. Also, has some interesting techniques for keeping air and particles out of the varnish (filtering through panty hose etc)

I'm mostly concerned about finding replacement screws for some of the ones I took out which were shot. Also about applying hole filling techniques seen on other threads to the holes for the screws that hold the coamings on which are horizontal.

Lastly, when I took the coamings off there was what I believe to be an original transluscent rubbery substance of some kind between the wood and the fiberglass. It was on pretty thick in some spots. Wondering what people are using in its place these days when reattaching the coamings.

P.S. This is my first post on this amazing site. Ready to launch Cup O Tea IV this spring. This Commander (#290) is my first boat. The information gleaned here has been immensely helpful.

Theis

03-06-2005, 07:00 PM

A Lot of questions: See how I do with the answers.

1. Replacement Screws. With the exception of the vary largest bolts, everything is available in stainless from WEST, except that they will have Phillips heads. The largest bolts, like the ones that hold the coaming to the cockpit, are available from Jamestown Distributors, as I recall. Only use either stainless, or chrome plated brass (No cadmium or zinc plated steel because of eventual rust).

2. What I have used successfully for filling the holes, when the wood screws don't hold, are slivers of wood forced into the empty screw hole. The best choice, in my opinion, are slivers shaved from hardwood furniture pegs. Mahogany slivers are OK, as are wooden match sticks, but the mahogany is softer. Just shove them down there until the hole is full of the sticks, break off the slivers flush with the surface and then put the screw in. If the screw is load bearing, then fill the hold with some sort of water repellant glue, like Franklin Hide Glue, before pushing the slivers in and . Then pur the screws in and let it dry.

3. The clear substance might have been a silicone sealer. However, rather than using that, I would recommend, and have used a sulfite, like 3M 101 for the purpose. Do NOT use a polyurethane adhesive (like 3M 5200). You need a sealer, not an adhesive so that you can get them off if you need to at some time in the future. Don't use the silicone again because if any of it slops over on the fiberglass, paint will not stick, even if you wipe the goo off.

Best wishes on your endeavor. You have a super boat.

willie

03-07-2005, 04:56 AM

Welcome aboard!
I was thinking you were referring to covering the bolt heads with a plug or bung. Me too. I bought a bag of 100 if you need 75 or so!
Now this may sound a little dumb on my part (not unusual), but now i'm wondering how to get the bungs from their 1/2'' thickness down to, oh, maybe 1/8 or so to fit flush over the heads of the bolts holding the coamings on. Also the coaming have a great finish right now, bungs don't. So now what? Hold them on a belt sander until they're about right, glue in with elmers? then spot varnish? The bolt heads don't look THAT bad, but would be nice to have the bungs over them. Any wood shop teachers in the group? :rolleyes: Gotta be a trick to all these little details!

Mike Goodwin

03-07-2005, 05:26 AM

1st the grain of the bung must run with the grain of the board .
You glue the bungs in place as they are (use varnish as the glue) not Elmers , the correct tool for trimming is called a "slick" , a very large and heavy chisel . I have a slick that is 40" long and the blade is 3-3/4" wide . Place the blade flat on the surface and slide forward slicing off the bung excess. It can be done without f***ng the varnish .
Not having a slick , and I bet a beer you don't , you can use an orbital sander and sand the bung down flat to the surface ( of course that f**s the finish ) and you get a nice fit and finish.
Sanding the bungs with a belt sander before install is asking for a spot on Americas Funniest Videos.
Last year I made over 4,000 bungs and installed them on the Schooner Virginia , you might call me the expert , I also trained a helper in bung cutting and making and taught several volunteers to install bungs.

ebb

03-07-2005, 08:48 AM

Most carpenters will have a set of Fuller's countersink drills for 4 or 5 screw sizes and corresponding plug cutters. The drills are used in hand-held tools while the plug cutters are used in the press. These plugs are slightly truncated - unlike the bagged ones - so that when tapped in the hole they usually fit tight. Store bought plugs may not fit well because they are parallel sided. Make-yer-owns also have a nice rounded edge what makes it easy to start them.

Tight fitting plugs are needed for first class varnish work. There's no way to avoid the tell tale ring the plug makes. That's why the tighter they are the better they disappear. Any glue you use will feature the ring. Like Mike sez, on bright-work you have to line up the grain of the plug and plank, and you must use varnish when you put them in. You are 'sealing' the wood and the screw.

Thus in new work a screw that is driven home tight in a 'properly countersinked' hole (the Fuller's have removable collars that show the optimum depth for the plug) the plug will mate exactly in the hole and set tight.

Old work, where the plug has been dug out - you could not do this if the plug had been glued in!!! - there is the problemish. One way is to ignore the countersink and go with a larger screw size. Leaving the flat head exposed, flat with the surface, imco doesn't look all that bad on the coamings. Another solution MAY be to use donut washers to cover the hole and feature the round head screws as expensive jewelry. If done right it doesn't protrude much, 1/16"(?)

In absence of a slick, a couple of commoner-garden Stanley chisels will do. Mike's method uses chisel width to keep you from gouging the plank as you very well can do with a narrow blade. A no slick method might be to use your widest chisel, chamfer side down on the plank but canted UP a bit off the surface so that when you knock the plug excess off you leave some still there.

With the chisel resting on the work - you hit the plug slightly UP, not level. This is because the grain on the plug may not be parallel and some of the plug in the hole might get knocked out with the waste from below the surface. Then you carefully pare down the remainder very carefully with a sharp narrow blade. Paring from the LOW side to the high side you can get it very flat and true. Sanding is counterproductive on wood you have already gone thru the numbers or varnished. Fix the no flats when sanding the first layers of arnish.

If you are stuck with a larger hole than the plug you have, and haven't got any more time to fiddle, you might put a dot of 5minute epoxy on the bottom of the plug and hope that holds it. The assumption here is that the regular 5minit stuff is very brittle and next time an awl would be used to pry the glue out of the screw head slot, good luck. Don't glue the whole plug in, remember the next guy may be you!

commanderpete

03-07-2005, 09:41 AM

You guys are really going to countersink and plug those screws? I don't get it.

I used bronze screws from Jamestown and brass washers. Let them darken a bit and varnish right over them. Kind of blend in.

Stainless looks fine too I think. This is a pic of Sirocco with stainless

Mike Goodwin

03-07-2005, 10:26 AM

I didn't say I was going to do it that way! If you were paying me to I would!
That is just the traditional way of doing it. Hell I might just use drywall screws and let 'em countersink themselves.
On those thin coamings I like the trim washer , just watch out in the summer when those buggers get hot!

ebb

03-07-2005, 10:45 AM

Befor the coamings came off 338 the flush exposed screwheads were fairly unnoticable. They were #12 flathead bronze with some coats of Cetol. Bronze with varnish would over time disappear too, I think.

While the coamings were a full 3/4", I have seen thin coamings recently. Considering that the screws lag or clamp the wood in place it would be better they NOT be countersunk in thinner stock because there wouldn't be much wood in the screw hole holding the coamings.

Sirocco's cockpit looks great. And is in keeping with the style of fastening everywhere else on the boat.

willie

03-07-2005, 08:35 PM

Sir Mike, I am humbled that you replied to my question. I remember looking at that website, link somewhere on here???--Anyway, from the master himself!
Bung master? humm, somehow that doesn't quite sound right! I am in awe of the work you do. No words for it.

The proceedure sounds pretty scary to me, after all the work varnishing!
I have flat headed stainless stovebolts? is that the proper term? anyway, they're sunk in a bit, the boards aren't too awfully thin. I'll get some pictures tomorrow.

I was thinking the same thing about running them across the belt sander. Might have a few raw fingers!

I'd really like to take a look at that schooner again. How about posting the link, again? Thanks, your humble servant,

Mike Goodwin

03-08-2005, 03:58 AM

You can get to the website ;

http//.schoonervirginia.com/

If you have the original coamings I bet they are under 3/4" now .

Yeah "Bung -Master" , after my favorite character in the Wizard of Id , I prefer bung master over 'Lord Of the Bungs', the moniker my apprentice was given.

commanderpete

03-08-2005, 05:33 AM

Sweet lines.

Did ebb build the rudder?

ebb

03-08-2005, 06:43 AM

Lookit that, rudder don't go up to the hull. It's gonna vortex and spoil her speed for sure!

Mike Goodwin

03-08-2005, 07:07 AM

Gives you a better idea of scale, picture taken about 3 hours before the above shot. Me in red shirt.

Mike Goodwin

03-08-2005, 07:22 AM

Constructed just like our rudder but bigger, the bronze shaft weighs nearly 800lbs!
I can't find Ebb in these photos!

willie

03-08-2005, 06:44 PM

Mike, thanks so much. I am even more humbled. And without words. You must feel very proud. Are you still involved with the project--rigging, fitting out? To think that a guy with your experience is an Ariel sailor, well, here's to you! Says a lot for our little yacht!

I took some photos of my coamings, and my custom covers before going for an awesome sail this morning. It had to be the most perfect outing yet. About 70 degrees, 15 knots, a few gusts to 20 to keep me awake, and just beautiful. I was trying to see if i could tell any difference in performance with the Nissan 5 hp 2 stroke long shaft. Admiral's idea. (And it will be good for locking through the dams.) Other than that, don't see much need for it. Anyway, i don't have a speedo, so couldn't tell much difference actually. If anything, she seems more stable on a downwind run. Didn't hobby horse around like usual. And that could have been my imigination, or different conditions too. She still seems to sail great with it in the water, so maybe she'll forgive me for opening up the well. Hope so. She sure sails great.
So what's this thread? lol Kinda wandering all over the place here. Sorry all.
Anyway, here's a few pictures of the coamings, and my little puney stern. Puney and pretty! Even with the outboard. ugh

Oh yeah, the exterior wood. I can't decide what to do with the bolt heads. I think i'll just leave em exposed. They're only counter sunk about 1/8". Didn't measure the coaming thickness, i'm guessing 5/8 to 3/4. Now i got all the rest to do! I like sailing better than varnishing though, so might get done, might not! Working on a sound system now, i gotta have some tunes out there, especially when i'm all alone! :cool:

Thanks again for the link and pics. That is so awesome! IF i ever get back that way....

Mike Goodwin

03-09-2005, 05:41 AM

Thanks for the kudos !

Nice looking boat you have , covers for the coamings wow!
Is that a lake you are sailing on? 70 degrees and 15 to 20 and you are way up north, we had snow 40 to 50 and the mid 20's and this is supposed to be the south .

Why dont you fill the holes with a brown caulk? 1/8" is very shallow to bung , I like a 1/4" at least . From 10' away nobody will notice .

After 2 years with the schooner , I'm semi-retired again . Had a fall from some scaffolding in Nov and my knee is still healing ( I hope! ) .
Working on a top secret boatbuilding project for the city right now .

commanderpete

03-10-2005, 07:02 AM

Nice looking wood there Willie. Are those teak coamings?

My biggest problem with varnishing is getting the weather to coincide with my free time. I'm always trying to slap on a few coats in early April. The weather is cold and raining, or threatening to rain. If I followed the manufacturer's guidelines I would never get the job done. Once the tape goes on the clock starts ticking. Even good tape can be hard to remove if you leave it on too long.

So, I've been known to push the envelope. I've found that if I get over 50 degrees the varnish will be O.K.. I've been surprised by the rain more than once too. As long as the varnish has an hour or two to skin over the rain won't hurt it.

Don't try this at home, your mileage may vary.

Laying on the varnish goes quickly. Everything else seems to take time---getting down to the boat, rolling out the supplies, taping off, setting up etc.. Once the brush hits the varnish it goes quick, or it should.

CupOTea

03-10-2005, 07:51 PM

Hoping I can get the remainders of some of the old screws which just twisted off in the removal process out of there before I start stuffing them with mahogany. Thanks, Theis.

First the screws, then the bungs - scraped, not sanded.

The schooner looks great, Mike. Congratulations. No wonder you're on top of so much of this stuff. I'm going to bed the coamings with Dolfinite when I put them back in.

Just for the record, I was talking to the Epiphanes guy today about thinning and they pronounce it Epi-faness (Dutch).

CupOTea

03-12-2005, 06:38 AM

One more question - when varnishing the coamings are y'all doing one side then the other or standing them on edge so they are vertical and then varnishing? How does either one affect the application of the varnish?

willie

03-12-2005, 07:05 AM

Good question, one i had, but was afraid to ask!
What i did, was hang them by wires, via a screw in each end in the bottom edge. Not saying it worked the greatest, or was the best way, but couldn't come up with a better idea! That way i could do both sides, all the way around at one time. It still will run, especially from the holes. Have to be careful brushing around them not to fill em up, then it runs down when you're gone. And maybe a few runs don't really matter until the last couple coats. You'll have to clean the varnish out of the holes too, if they get too much.

It's interesting. I tried laying them flat first, doing one side then the other. You get a mess on the bottom side. I did anyway. Good luck, let me know what you come up with for future reference!
\
Going sailing. Still like summer here. Gonna be ugly in August i'm afraid.

~ _/) ~

Mike Goodwin

03-12-2005, 09:01 AM

Leave them attached to the boat and use blue, green or silver fine line masking tape . I find that much easier . The silver tape costs more but can last upwards of 2 weeks in the sun and rain , the green is not quite as good and the blue is good for 2 or 3 days if there is no dew and no rain.
Never ever by cheap tape , not worth the mess .

CupOTea

03-17-2005, 07:11 PM

Glad I asked. The coamings are already off the boat - had to take the old finish all the way down and there is a little filling to do on some punky wood at one end (still looking for the recommended laquer based wood putty). So I guess I will hang them. Thanks Willie.

Mike - I am an inch away from placing an order on a "Goodwin Spec" Tohatsu 6hp - but Nissan is telling the dealer that they don't offer a 6.5 pitch prop for this model. Do you have a # (like for the vertical pull elbow fitting) for this prop or did you have yours changed?

Mike Goodwin

03-17-2005, 07:29 PM

You have to get the prop as an extra or spare prop , they wont ship it as standard equip . The vertical elbow is a Nissan Part , my dealer installed it for me about a month after I got the motor . I'll have to look for part #'s , they are in the paperwork .

BTW, The tape is silver , blue, green in order of preference , I switched the blue and green ,the green is same day use the blue is 48 or 72 hr and the silver has been known to work for weeks and still come right off .

Theis

03-18-2005, 04:43 AM

Mike:

I had thought your first impression was correct - green lasted longer than the blue but then looked at the 2005 WEST catalog and revised my ways, as you did. But, to my surprise, blue is no longer blue and green no longer green. Each color has varieties - although it is true that blue can be left on longest. I could not find the silver listed.

On page 434 and 435 of the 2005 catalog is a good summary of the qualities of the various tapes.

Mike Goodwin

03-18-2005, 05:37 AM

According to 3-M ;
Silver is good up to a month ;
bright blue is good up to 7 days ;
bright green is for non-critical paint masking , not for extended outdoor use.
Fine Line ( the other green ) is easy to stretch and tear for critical color separation , not for exrended outdoor use.

That has been my experience also, I use mostly blue .
High heat, sunlight and humidity reduces the exposure times .

Theis

03-18-2005, 07:33 AM

Do you have any experience with tape from prior seasons? For example, the bright blue. Does it age in any way - particularly with regard to the 7 days? The stuff seems to work, but I am questioning whether it dries hard after a couple days - perhaps my observations are not accurate.

commanderpete

03-18-2005, 09:30 AM

A recent issue of Practical Sailor had a review of tape.

I've got that issue around here somewhere......

I remember they liked good old electrical tape. I'm going to give it a try.

CupOTea

03-19-2005, 09:58 AM

Thanks, Mike. I have the elbow part number from one of your old postings. I'll work with the dealer on the prop.

mbd

06-07-2006, 06:25 PM

Wow, great thread! I'm already invested in Epiphanes, but I was curious if anyone has used tung oil on their brightwork, specifically the marine version of Waterlox (www.waterlox.com)?

commanderpete

06-08-2006, 08:39 AM

I've seen this product mentioned from time to time- Le Tonkinois.

Organic and non-stinky

http://www.tarsmell.com/index.html

ebb

06-09-2006, 09:27 AM

Great! The price is right too.

A coppla notes: Cetol (which has been described as looking exactly like Cetol on your coamings) has a lighter less orange version now. (Uncured) Cetol will melt polysulfide into a sticky mess, so if you're using that for bedding or topping off the bedding compound, you have a small problem.

Any of the traditional varnishes can be removed with a heat gun. I'm not sure about Cetol but two part synthetic finishes like Bristol cannot. While they will last longer, once water gets underneath, like on the top edge, you will have a peeling problem. You will have to sand down to bare wood and feather out.

Where the winches bases were and at the rabbet in the front are plateaus of mahagony on 338s old coamings. Sanding prep and varnish jobs over the decades have worn these coamings thin! Wipe on varnishes look like a good way to go. Has been pointed out here that the coamings are a major element in the esthetics of the A/Cs. Might be no substitute for the real thing: spar varnish.

I'm a believer in priming mahogany with penetrating epoxy, maybe teak too. It is said that laying on your first coat of varnish over not quite cured epoxy will bond the varnish to the wood. Seems like a good idea because the varnish begins breaking down at the wood interface. You need to use a varnish that has UV filters in it to protect the epoxy! Seems that if you go with this system you better NOT skip maintenance or you'll be taking it all off.
Again.

xroyal

06-09-2006, 10:00 AM

ebb, not having read all 5 pages of the thread, curious to have your opinion of Deks Olje? I used it for some time with good results...as long as one keeps it applied every few months.

ebb

06-09-2006, 10:39 AM

Never got into it myself. I mean I tried to use it, but..... It's a system: one part to be put on the wood until the wood can't take it any more - and then thicker UV inhibited coats are put on to protect what you first did. Nobody talks about it. That may be a reason not to use it. That's what happened to me, just forgot about the stuff. Probably cost alot too.

Putting watery oil on vertical surfaces is counter-productive (2 dollar word for PITA) - like it's too juicey to mask (the coamings) off the deck or whatever surface. so you need another solvent there to clean it off the deck, if it's a nice deck or newly painted, you could screw it up!

I don't know, I had cans around for years. The same cans. :rolleyes:

Suppose this could be done to coamings that have been removed, all the way up to the finish coats. (After that maintenance just requires wiping on a fresh #2 coat regularly, right?) If you decide to go with another system, what does that entail? Suppose you want to go gloss. what to you have to do? Maybe it's the ultimate undercoat (rather than epoxy) for spa varnish!

You can lounge against a smooth sexy varnish job. I wonder if the Deks Olje will print your nice yachhhhting shirt?

Must have been manufactured for deks. There it probably works just fine.

Mike Goodwin

06-09-2006, 02:25 PM

I used the stuff back in the late 70's early 80's and found it to be for folks in climates where 70 degrees is considered very hot. A lot of work and not as good as varnish , IMHO .

xroyal

06-09-2006, 07:30 PM

I used it in SF Bay Area temps for exterior wood. You have a choice of matte or gloss, $26qt (qt lasted years on my boat) at West Marine. Once wood is sanded, I applied a couple of coats of the matte. Granted, it's thin and care needed to apply. About every 3 months I'd coat again to stay ahead of sanding. Always looked nice and never came off on my clothing. WM customers give it a 5 for 5 rating.

commanderpete

01-08-2007, 07:11 AM

Epifanes on sale at Jamestown for $20

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=92&familyName=Epifanes+Gloss+Clear+Varnish

commanderpete

01-09-2007, 05:45 AM

I like the Jen foam brushes

http://www.wholesalecentral.com/mercan0001/store.cfm?event=itemdetail&itemid=83228&returnto=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewholesalecentral%2Ecom %2Fmercan0001%2Fstore%2Ecfm

By the way, my experiment with electrical tape didn't work out. It wasn't sticky enough.

Robin

01-16-2007, 11:52 AM

I'm replacing my coamings-someone crashed into Mischief last summer while she was sitting on the mooring and smashed one of the coamings. I consider myself lucky that that was the only damage. Anyway, I have 2 gorgeous new pieces of mahogany cut to fit and I'm starting to consider the varnish.
I used to use Epifanes but I remembered reading somewhere (I could swear it was here) that it doesn't last so for the last couple of years for some smaller projects I switched to the Interlux Schooner varnish. I think it lasted longer but that could be wishful thinking. I'm also looking at Pettit Z-spar, which is a bit more expensive, but if their copy is to believed, worth it.
Interlux is way thinner than Epifanes so it was hard to get used to.
Any new opinions on which is best? I noted all the praise earlier in this thread for Epifanes, so now I'm confused. Not unusual.

ebb

01-16-2007, 01:08 PM

Just to kinda snarl things up here...
There a resuscitation in progress at the yard of a small wood sailboat that is nearly complete. The type of cutaway keel boat escapes me at the moment, it is a pretty thang with iron ballast keel that was worth only the bronze fittings it had and the iron for scrap when they started last spring. Major $$$ rebuild. The bright work has been done with Detco's (Sterling LPU) Crystal Varnish thruout this rainy and cold season.

The boat is being worked on uncovered (a tarp over for rain) in the open. The varnish looks fantastic and has this modest list of attributes:
fast build,
"enviable luster" (very true!)
flows out, dries fast, LIKES COLD WEATHER, sands without clogging.
overnite recoat without sanding,
goes on over anything, everything goes on over it, including heavy solvented two part urethane!
(all according to the hype on the Detco site).
First two coats are seal/primer coats and go on thinned. Remaining coats go on out of the can. Like spar varnish, the more coats, the more mirror. Eight coats and they'll stop to look! Coats don't require prep sanding between unless you've waited too long. Detco does call Crystal a varnish - not a coating.
Great qualities, but like a pretty woman, how long will she be with you?

Putting ON any varnish is half the battle. The other half: HOW LONG WILL THE "ENVIABLE LUSTER" LAST? I'll ask them why they are using the stuff. What about peeling, does water get under it, how easy to renew, repair scratches, how does it age, how easy is it to take down to wood again after many coats? etc. It looks just like varnish oughta look to me, There's NO obvious evidence of any orange or muddy UV inhibiter!

CapnK

01-17-2007, 04:39 AM

I'll toss in a vote for: epoxy + reg'lar old varnish (on teak, oak, or mahogany). Simple, works well, no exotic names or prices.

On bare wood, put 2 coats of resin, let dry, sand smooth, then varnish. The epoxy hardens and protects the wood, the varnish then UV-protects the epoxy.

I was told to do this by a friend who makes wooden boats down in Texas, and it worked great for me. For the varnish, I used the Worst Marine house brand, which is exactly the same as Pettit's (IIRC) but abuckortwo cheaper, and it has the highest level of UV protection of varnishes (at the time I bought it, according to PS mag). 2 coats of varnish lasted me over a year and still looked awesome. I'd planned more coats (and will use more in the future), but ran out of time when applying...

The process took a bit more effort than the Cetol which I used on my previous boat, but the results made it look as if I knew what I was doing, like I'd had actual experience beforehand. I even had a powerboater ask me how much would I charge to do his. :D

commanderpete

01-17-2007, 06:40 AM

There must be 100 different choices for wood finishes. You've got regular varnishes, modified ones, water or oil based, 1 and 2 part urethanes, Cetol types etc.

They all claim to be the longest lasting. Each has its own fans. Somebody else will tell you its crap.

What does this mean?

They all work, but no product has swept the field because it is clearly superior.

I'm still intrigued by those products where you can apply multiple coats in a day. This would greatly speed up the process.

The Detco varnish ebb mentioned seems to allow this.

I had an unhappy experience when I tried Bristol Finish, so I hesitate to try any more miracle cures.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=855

ebb

01-17-2007, 07:20 AM

Man! we're ALL looking for the right stuff.
The boat restoration is a job for these guys, so they would tend to use stuff that wouldn't mess with their reputation. And the boat yard runs on what works and what doesn't. Word of mouth is king. Since this Crystal is. I think, relatively new*, I'll ask them if they bought the hype. As I point out, tho, the apparent ease of application in an exposed situation may have a lot to do with it. A dirty dusty windy yard ain't ideal for varnishing. Impressed me. After the job leaves the yard, so may the luster.

Personally learnt to HATE EVERYTHING about traditional varnish except its LUSTER. "I'm not the only one!" One of these days, after a bloody century of trying, one of these chemical conglomerates could come up with the real enchilada sauce!:p

*Guess not. Check out:
>google< Another Varnish Post [Archive] - The Wooden Boat Forum
www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/archive/index.php/t-9637.html
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
A problem with some forums is wading thru the shuck and jive. Like with varnishing, it is possible to learn the technique. Scot Rosen's posts on the WBforum above seem credible to me. A lot more credible than P.S.'s funky two inch square wood chip varnish tests I recently found in a book of theirs - imco not even coming up to a grade school science project level - if anything, varnish should be tested in real life situations to be credible. My opinion. You know, like ON a boat. Anyway, a vote for Crystal. Don't know if there was any further follow up on its lasting qualities from S.R.?

Robin

01-19-2007, 05:06 PM

Well guys, I wanted fewer choices not more. The Detco Crystal does look interesting. And from that discussion in wooden boat, it might be the one. I actually love varnishing, I just never have enough time.

edward burke

03-16-2007, 12:10 PM

I am in the process of doing my hatch covers (teak) and I'm using McCloskey Man O War and they are looking great in my garage. I was told this is the best any thought about this

commanderpete

03-20-2007, 07:49 AM

McCloskeys has been around for a long time. I'm sure it will turn out great.

Now if anybody can figure out how to varnish both sides of the hatchboards at once, that would be a good trick

This year I'm going to try the 3M vinyl tape #471. Its not cheap, but I can't stand having to scrape off old paper painter's tape. The vinyl tape is difficult to find in widths greater that 3/4"

http://www.hillas.com/Products/3M_Vinyl_Tapes/3M_471_1X36_BL.asp

(they only had individual rolls in red)

http://www.hopkins-carter.com/160240/3M-Scotch-sup-reg--sup-Plastic-Tape-471-06409-Blue-3-4-in-x-36-yd

(only 3/4 inch width)

edward burke

03-26-2007, 09:37 PM

My cabin trim look like propellers mounted on 8 penny nails that were pounded through some old front door woodwork trim. Cabinet drawers stand on their own, as long as I remember to walk around them, instead of through them when I leave for work around 5:30am (I exit through the garage). Cabinet doors pose as Modified Alkyd Resin laden mobiles suspended from 50 pound test fishing line swaying in the aromatic breezes of Exempt Mineral Spirits. Those pesky hatch covers will receive the required 12-20 coats per side and sometime in 2009 they will be introduce to Hull #100 with a pomp and ceremony Elton John will be proud of. Yes, my family is packing up and leaving for Nantucket. Yes, I will feel some guilt as they are leaving. (but they constantly and selfishly complain about fumes permeating throughout the house), (what fumes, I ponder). Yet I know when I summons them to return home in 2009 they will dance with glee on the marina green proudly proclaiming that bright work belongs to my husband and father. Yes, we helped him to its completion.

commanderpete

07-18-2007, 07:30 AM

The 3M Vinyl tape worked nicely. I had it on for nearly a month. Pulled right off without tearing or shredding.

Only problem was the glue is pretty strong. My hull is painted with one-part Brightsides, and a few bits of that lifted off when removing the tape. No problem with the two-part paint on deck. Would be fine on gelcoat.

Nothing to see in this picture. I just thought is was funny the guy had his license plate on upside down

ebb

02-10-2010, 08:34 AM

This venerable thread - with posts by skippers sorely missed - needs a boot.

I've been using Epi's clear varnish for small projects, and it's nice. They tell us it is a phenolic-modified alkyd resin and tung oil varnish, a true varnish with UV absorbers. You have to sand between coats. Full name is 'Clear High Gloss Marine Varnish'. CV in the list below.

Wood Finish Gloss AND Wood Finish Matte is a one part FINISH made of urethane alkyd resins and tung oil, and UV protection. You can find on the online Epifanes site why they do not call it a varnish. BUT it acts like a varnish rather than a hard film alternative that other brands make.

I decided to give it a try. TWO reasons: I won't have to sand between coats to build-up the recommended 8 to 12 coat thickness. Second, WF comes in a matte/satin that I will use inside. Wood Finish Matte can be coated over CV varnish. Epifanes msds calls it interior so may not have full UV absorbers. It obviously can be sanded between coats if you miss the 3 day window or want to smooth the work - just like the traditional varnish.
On the exterior the 8 to 10 coat thickness can be built up without sanding each coat using the Wood Finish. And you can make the last coat Clear High Gloss without prep, just pour it on!

The Q&A on the Epifines' Varnish page will answer many of your questions about both products.

I like the versatility. Both varnish and finish are identical in appearance and there seems to be no caution in painting one product over the other - which I'm positive will happen.

The pricing for Epifanes is like that for domestic brands. You can find almost everything they make at their online Maine warehouse. There is a lot of stuff you'll never see listed in other vendor catalogs. You pay their list price and you DON'T pay shipping. Their quart size is 1000ml and gets you almost two extra ounces.

SAVING LEFT OVERS.
Varnish/finish uses air (oxygen) to dry. These coatings DO HAVE SOLVENTS in them.
Clear Gloss: Naptha 42% / Xylene 2%.
Wood Finish Gloss contains 37% naptha.
Wood Finish Matte also has barium sulphate in it.
Saving the expensive liquid left in the can is a long standing forum subject. Opened and resealed varnish thickens and skins over no matter what! Keeping oxygen out when you reseal the can is virtually impossible. Won't enumerate. One hopeful thing to do is to press Seranwrap (polyethylene) down on the varnish surface before putting the lid back on.
A product called Bloxygen can be squirted into the can as you are closing the lid to evacuate the air and exchange it with a heavier-than-air inert gas, ARGON. Considering the price of Epifanes, filling the small space inside with a non-reactive gas is cost-effective. Constantines, Klingspor, Lee Valley, PaintSource, Rockler, Woodcraft.
Liquor stores, some grocery stores carry 'gas blanket' aerosols for squirting into wine bottles and almost anything else you want to keep from oxidizing. $10 max for 75 doses. Look at ingredients, imco should be 100% argon.
ARGON cannot be used on waterbased coatings - nor solvent release lacquer coatings

EPIFANES............500ml...1000ml [CV= Clear Varnish / WF = Wood Finish / WFM = Wood Finish Matte / BTh = Brush Thinner]

Mertons - CV -- 14.75 - 27.35
...............WF -- 16.10 - 29.50
...............WFM - 19.80 - 35.30
...............BTh -- 8.20 - 10.60
_________________________
Epifanes -CV -- 23.56 - 43.66
..............WF -- 25.64 - 47.12
..............WFM - 31.61 - 56.36
..............BTh -- 13.06 - 16.91
_________________________
Jamestwn -CV - 14.99 - 26.99
..............WF -- 18.99 - 32.99
..............WFM - .........- 39.99
..............BTh -- ....................
_________________________
WM ........CV -- 23.99 - 40.99
_________________________
Defender -CV - 17.99 - 24.99
.............. WF --20.99 - 35.99
...............WFM........................
...............Bth..........................
_________________________
Noahs -- CV -- 17.67 - 25.99
..............WF -- 19.38 - 35.34
.............WFM - ...........42.27
..............BTh -- 9.80 - 12. 68
__________________________________________________ _____________________________

Commander 147

02-10-2010, 09:29 AM

And with all of the wood on the Commander I have been giving a lot of consideration to what finish to use for all my new brightwork.

While Epifanes is certainly on the list of options, I would like to hear what others think about System 3 LPU clear gloss over epoxy seal coat. Has anyone tried this for the brightwork? Are there any informed opinions out there about how well it would or should work?

The website link...

http://www.systemthree.com/projects-clear-finish-outdoor-wood.asp

ebb

02-10-2010, 10:12 AM

Mertons, by the way, also carries System 3.

This thread covers alot of ground on technigue and coatings.
System 3 didn't invent the 'epoxy first' routine. It was users of Smith's CPES 'penetrating sealer' that got it going in the '70s, I think. The sealer was concocted to seal DIY concrete boats and then discovered by wood workers.
But it's too easy to mix a little xylene into your laminating resin to make yer own (less expensive) sealer.
Would think that System 3's epoxy sealer is similar.

Laminating resin is a loose material and with the solvent will "penetrate' wood just as well as CPES. CPES has alcohol in the formula to chase water (found in new concrete) The present day cold weather version is a great sealer for mahogany. If it is not totally cured Steve Smith says it'll tie varnish on better. It is not often necessary to chase water in mahogany like you might have to on a ferro-cement hull.
On woods like teak and mahogany water-thin sealers like CPES don't 'penetrate' any better than any other sealer. We did experiments, if there is deeper penetration it's in microns.

Sealing with epoxy is now accepted practice for prepping wood before finishing. There are them that don't like the idea. Each to their own.
I wet out the wood with the shop epoxy mix and dry it off with rags or towels. That raises the grain. Smooth with sandpaper and douse again with the sealer, and either use it as a 'tie coat' or let it set up. Then sand for varnish. Skip the 50/50 and proceed with the normal varnish schedule, starting with thinned coats.

I like System 3's waterborne epoxy primer. I had trouble with their structural epoxy T-88. Conceptually System 3 is right-on and they are on the our side, I believe. Much more so than their steroid competitors.
Practical Sailor doesn't even know they exist!
I am sure that if you use anybody's (NO SOLVENT) 100% solids epoxy as a sealer you can put anybody else's brand finish over it. Including waterborne and housepaint. If you add your own solvent to the epoxy, you have to be sure that all of the solvent is dissipated before recoating with anything - including an epoxy product.

A recent Practical Sailor brightwork test really devalued Smith's 5 Year Clear Coat.
I have heard and read a lot of sentiment AGAINST 2-part clear finishes.
If you have to barewood to refinish you will wish you never used it. Every once in a while even old timers will take the bait and use a "BRISTOL FINISH'.
And have a hell of a time getting it off when water gets under it.

I think it's pretty well agreed that the Dutch have taken traditional varnish to the next level. Brightwork will always require maintenance. Make it easy on yourself. Getting an extra year out of a plastic finish isn't worth it. MY OPINION. Informed? I don't know.

Commander 147

02-10-2010, 10:35 AM

Your last sentence made me chuckle but I believe you are informed about a lot of subjects when it comes to these boats.

So would you like to give me another opinion? Many of my sailing friends think Cetol is the only way to go in the Florida sun. And the natural teak version does not look bad like all of the other versions. It also does not protect as well because it does not inhibit the UV rays as well. But it is easy to repair when the finish starts to degrade.

You obviously chose Epifanes for a variety of reasons but I would like your take on the pluses and minuses of Cetol natural teak versus Epifanes.

BTW are you using the epoxy sealer under the Epifanes?

ebb

02-10-2010, 11:17 AM

A page or two from a professional or two on the subject of Epifanes, Cetol and 2-parts.

google> Refinishing
www.mobilemarineservices.net/id2.html

Commander 147

02-10-2010, 01:47 PM

I've been reading several things like that and there are a lot of opinions out there.

I am not fond of the look of Cetol and your point about the 2 part finishes is a valid one. And I plan to make most of my brightwork easily removeable for refinishing. So Epifanes is looking more and more likely.

You did not answer my previous question when I asked if you plan to apply epoxy prior to the Epifanes.

Rico

02-10-2010, 06:20 PM

I think it's pretty well agreed that the Dutch have taken traditional varnish to the next level. Brightwork will always require maintenance. Make it easy on yourself. Getting an extra year out of a plastic finish isn't worth it. MY OPINION.

I second Ebbs sentiment above...

Traditional varnish (I swear by EPIFANES clear) - or nothing at all... (but Teak oil) me thinks. Especially in tropical climes.

The tropics are VERY tough on finishes... the epoxy will NOT be impervious, it might provide a bit of longer life at first, but you will need to refresh at some point... - Especially with new wood. I'd prefer to have the ability to spot treat the finish where the natural oils might bubble up. This will be hard to do with hard plastic in the way...

Sun covers for brightwork the most effective protection, and ARE a MUST - even in California.

ebb

02-10-2010, 11:08 PM

Comanda ONE FO SEVEN suh.
Whether to put an epoxy base under Epifanes Wood Finish.
I would say YES because I seal all wood on the boat. In my brain epoxy is a prep for primer.
However I have no experience with the particular coating. Though I am going to use it because there are better things to do than sanding.

But there is so much BS about varnishing, whom do you trust?
I don't know if the current respected master Rebecca Wittman, who has two paperbacks on the subject of yacht brightwork, don't know if she recommends it....
Epifanes clearly doesn't make epoxy a first step. But then they also don't mention argon and tell you to flip the can when you store it. So you end up with skin in the middle of the can instead of on top.
They also say a badger bristle brush is too expensive and is probably phony. China bristle is the only way to go. THAT sounds OK.

CPES is recommended as an epoxy sealer for varnish work by Steve Smith because it allows 'the wood to breathe.' But he doesn't explain how the wood continues to breathe under 8 coats of whatever finish.
I don't know where I stand on wood breathing.
Talking about water vapor of course. If wood breathes....FINE....if it doesn't....FINE!

When I prep the precious mahogany coaming and rail pieces before installing them on the boat I will seal ALL sides of each piece with epoxy sealer, including the screwholes. Probably have 6 of the 8 coats of WF also all round! Will certainly try to curtail that wood from huffing and a puffing. Epoxy makes a better neutral surface for almost anything to stick to. It's another layer of wood protection against water, mold, rot where sides of the wood are hidden. Can see epoxy as making a harder, tougher surface to build a finish on.

Think I'll follow the rules and regs of Epifanes Wood Finish. Skipping the 50/50 dilution of the finish. Do 25/75 on the epoxy sealer to start, then a 5/95.
What I read doesn't lead me to think of it as a polyurethane finish, OR a Cetol. WF is varnish, another kind of varnish. Varnishing wood on a boat is a dumb thing to do. It needs all the help it can get.:rolleyes:

Ariel 109

02-11-2010, 02:13 AM

I found these two pages very helpful. Always have admired those old Gar Wood speedboats.

Ben

http://www.vintagehydroplanes.com/buffing.html

http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/Varnishing.htm

Commander 147

02-11-2010, 07:03 AM

First - Hi Rico thanks for your thoughts...

Traditional varnish (I swear by EPIFANES clear) - or nothing at all... (but Teak oil) me thinks. Especially in tropical climes.

The problem with teak oil in my area here is that you need to reapply about every 60 days. When I finally finish my restoration I want to sail as much as possible and not spend all my time during my 9 month sailing season doing maintenance. The plan is to pull the boat for the 3 months in the summer when sailing just is not fun with all the thunderstoms every day and bring her home to the shop. I will do my annual maintenance during that 3 month time frame and if the Epifanes needs work I will do it then.

Sun covers for brightwork the most effective protection, and ARE a MUST - even in California.

I am 100% on board with you on this one Rico. And I am lucky that my wife has a sewing business (she does custom window treatments) and the equipment to make me all my canvas work. The very first project I want her to make is a cover that will protect all of the brightwork and go from just forward of the mast to just past the aft end of the cockpit.

Next - thanks Ebb for your reply...

I now plan to follow your suggestions and seal the wood with epoxy and then apply 6 or 8 coats of Epifanes. As long as I stay on top of the maintenance each year I think I will get the best bang for my time spent with this route.

And finally - Ben

Thanks for posting the articles. I enjoyed reading them and seeing the pictures of what can be done with enough time and effort. And they also reinforced the epoxy sealer concept prior to finishing.

For my project I think I will do as mentioned above and epoxy seal then apply Epifanes. I will brush all but the last coat on and spray the final coat. I have an HVLP sprayer that I have used many times over the years for my furniture projects. But spraying even with HVLP goes through a lot more finish materials so I will only spray the final coat.

ebb

02-11-2010, 08:08 AM

Ben's two resources are great finds
- especially so in their compleatness.
The first will take me into next week to digest ( very rich information)
and the second for the fantastic step-by-step photos.

On a warm-up skim of the articles, the first pro puts at least 3 coats of epoxy on the work as a sealer. He fills the grain completely and sands back to an absolutely smooth epoxy surface. ZERO EXPOSED WOOD. 100% ENCAPSULATION.
I think, that if you can afford the time, effort and $$ it takes to achieve this, in theory this is the better way to go for our knockabout live outdoors Ariels and Commanders.
This provides an important barrier to sanding through to the wood itself with maintenance revarnishing and touch-up.
Can't see what's wrong with this concept and (with a little more worrying about it....suffocating wood!) I will go to the extreme of completely encasing brightwork in epoxy before varnish.
Whatever number of epoxy coats it takes. It eliminates solvent cut coats, laying the Epifanes on directly from the can. Exciting!
Imco the full recommended schedule (8 coats?) of Epifanes should still be adhered to - because it is the number of layers of UV absorbers that provides protection for the wood. Each layer we assume adds 12.5% of the 100% UV protection of 8 coats.
In Florida and the tropics Epifanes will tell you to put on 10 or 12 coats.*

It looks like this method makes the seasonal maintenance issue a piece of frosting.
It's the UV absorbers that protect the wood we are replenishing the finish with.

We still use solvent in cut coats of epoxy on the mahogany. Final encapsulation (assume 2nd or 3rd NO SOLVENT coats) can be smoothed on with a cheap foam brush or roller, with sanding between. Hopefully you use a no-solvent laminating epoxy for this.

The shop with all the pictures uses a Petit sealer - which is two thirds solvent. And the MSDS reads like the stuff is a highly thinned varnish - rather than plastic. This (like CPES which imco is also 66% solvent) does not make a "barrier" coat. It's merely a sealer. That's OK. But only for boats that live most of their lives under wraps or in a garage - and never need those added maintenance coats.

H M M M M ....Two coats of aluminum paint on the mahogany would work,,,,and it's shiney!
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
*I think most people when they come upon the epoxy sealer thing aren't really sure the varnish SYSTEM will stick to the epoxy. Varnish is glue. It'll probably stick to other things besides wood. Epoxy is a glue. It sticks to a lot of things with major exceptions. Epoxy, if it's not out-gassing, has a raft of coatings that like to stick to it. It is the prime coat for all paint systems used on a boat. When cured it is inert. When grit sanded the tooth will mechanically lock on any number of coatings.
Thinned varnish pre-coating of raw wood is meant to insure subsequent multilayers layers are attached to the work. HERE IS WHERE OBJECTION HAPPENS between old school and new. There are woodfibers holding the varnish on, initially..... Yeah, but what's holding one coating of varnish onto another coat of varnish?
Scratches. And varnish stickiness. With the notable exception of Epi's Wood Finish, you must scratch the previous cured/dry surface.
Haven't heard of a chemical reaction taking place between one coat of Varnish and the next. Varnish sticks to prepared surfaces even if they aren't varnish.
The Q&A on the Epi's Varnish page explains the phenomenon of Wood Finish sticking to itself without prep sanding.
If you got this far, maybe you should check it out.;)
One thing more:
Downloaded to STUDY SteveSmith's three decade old four page directions for using CPES as a sealer under varnish. Nowhere does he say why ANY epoxy sealer makes a better base for varnish than anything else, nowhere! I guess it's sumpin we dumasses sposed to know. Maybe THAT'S WHY we have this continuing controversy. It's appears to be an unsubstantiated assumption by everybody including the experts.:p
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
WAY LATER EDIT: Smith&Co Clear Penetrating Epoxy CPES has been known to amine blush - or produce a strange greasey surface after given time to set. I began using the fast hardner 'cold weather' CPES version, any season, had it set up perfect every time. If you are prepping wood for paint or varnish, wash the cured surface with warm water & dish detergent - and rinse - be certain your next coats wil stick. NO solvent works to remove epoxy amine blush, only water.

commanderpete

02-11-2010, 08:35 AM

I recall that epoxy under varnish is a frequent topic of discussion at the Woodenboat forum. You'll find hundreds of opinions on the subject, but no consensus.

You can also read thousands of opinions on the best wood treatment, but no consensus.

Choose your poison.

Longevity is the most important factor, but there doesn't seem to be a scientific benchmark. You're left with manufacturers claims and anecdotal reports.

The urge to find a miracle cure is irresistible, even for me. Since I can't figure out what lasts the longest, I sometimes think about what goes on the fastest.

Obviously, the job goes quicker if you can apply multiple coats in a day. For my latest experiment, I used Epifanes Rapidcoat/Rapidclear. You can apply a new coat about every 5 hours without sanding between coats.

I brought the cockpit coamings and trim strips home to refinish. The Rapidcoat is rather dark, especially compared to a clear varnish like Epifanes.

I put on 6 coats of Rapidcoat and 6 of Rapidclear. I don't know how long it will last. I'll probably never know, since I put 2 coats of regular varnish on top of all that. I had run out of Rapidclear and was putting maintenance coats of varnish on some other pieces.

Unfortunately, you'll never find an agreement on what product, or class of products, works best.

Give some thought to trying to arrange the wood so you can do both sides at once, to get the job done quicker.

For the coamong boards, I passed a long eyebolt through a hole at each end and strung them up from the rafters with string. Wasn't great. They tended to shift and swing a bit. Like varnishing a moving target.

For other pieces I've tried to stand them up with clamps. This hasn't worked so great either. Maybe somebody has a good trick.

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=6395&stc=1&d=1262540623

Commander 147

02-11-2010, 01:47 PM

Must have been blowing pretty good that day or at least gusting pretty good.

I recently started a subscription for WoodenBoat magazine and was also checking out their forum. And you are certainly right that there is not a concensus on the epoxy under the varnish debate.

For my choice of poison I think the epoxy makes sense. If you look at wood under a very high magnification it is like a bundle of straws. Those straws are what wicked up the moisture and nutrients from the ground to feed the tree when it was alive. They are very good at wicking up moisture. And wood expands and contracts in large part based on the amount of moisture it is taking on or giving off which it does throughout its existence. So I believe if I limit the amount of moisture the wood can wick up (I will never stop it completely) then I can limit the amount of expansion and contraction that eventually causes the finish to fail. At least that is my take on the subject.

I checked out the Epifanes website briefly but was unable to decifer if the rapid coat was a better or not as good of a UV blocker than the original Epifanes varnish. I will need to spend some more time reading more about the two products. I guess in my mind which ever is the better UV blocker will be the choice I go with. Even if it takes me longer to do the finishing. I'm guessing that will turn out to be the original slow drying material.

mbd

02-11-2010, 05:37 PM

...For the coamong boards, I passed a long eyebolt through a hole at each end and strung them up from the rafters with string. Wasn't great. They tended to shift and swing a bit. Like varnishing a moving target.
I tried that way a couple of times - pics are somewhere here on the forum. Same gripes as Pete. Also, I had to hang them upside down, and when I got a little impatient with the varnish, i.e. brushed on too much, the drips ended up on the tops of the coamings where they had to be sanded because they were quite visible.

Then, at A-231 Bill's suggestion, I started doing them this way. I drilled a hole in the top of the 4x4's to accept the bolt from the winch bases. Works pretty good. They're solid enough to brush on the varnish and you can get at all the sides and edges. With the different heights, you can also rotate either of them to get better lighting. Also, with the coamings upright, the drips move in the right direction...

bill@ariel231

02-12-2010, 06:27 AM

that's the best use of those long bolts thru the coaming blocks that i have found. denting by head while crawling in the lockers seems to be the other useful purpose.:)

commanderpete

02-12-2010, 09:46 AM

That's a neat arrangement. I'd call it folk art.

Sometimes if I have smaller pieces, with screwholes in them, I'll prop them up on a bed of nails.

There is some advantage to working on horizontal surfaces. You can lay the finish on thick and heavy and it can't help but flow out nicely, as long as you can keep it from dripping around the underside.

C147--the Rapidcoat/clear is probably not the best choice to use over epoxy. They're a bit thin, and varnish would probably give you more build.

I wouldn't discount some of the newer Cetols either, although I haven't seen them in person. It seems you can get away with less coats using Cetol.

So many choices. Reminds me of a funny post I read here once. Somebody was asking whether they should buy one product or another. Everybody chimed in with their favorite brand. He comes back and says something like

"Gee, thanks guys, but I was hoping for less options, not more"

Commander 147

02-12-2010, 10:13 AM

this is 3 coats of Cetol natural teak on mahogany. It was brushed on about 1-1/2 years ago and has been laying in my shop ever since. You can probably tell it looks lots better than the older versions with the redish stain they have... problem is it does not protect like the older versions either.

I really wished there was a water based finish that worked well in the marine enviroment like the water based polyurethane I put on the worktop this sample is laying on. The worktop is a large U shape with 5 ft legs and a 14ft bottom of the U and in a single day I sprayed 8 coats of the water based poly on it. By the time I got to the far end the end I started on was dry to the touch and in another 20 to 30 minutes I could sand it.

commanderpete

02-13-2010, 06:45 AM

Looks good to me.

You don't often hear about people spraying on a wood finish. Not sure why.

With the amount of time you save, who cares if you need to buy an extra quart?

ebb

02-13-2010, 07:35 AM

C'pete,
Take a look at Ben's, Ariel 109, #100 post in this thread.
The first blue line ,,,,hydroplane..... gives the WHY on spraying clearcoat!

(There's the How, Where, When, Why, and the oft forgot NO WAY!)

Lucky Dawg

05-31-2010, 09:38 PM

And I am lucky that my wife has a sewing business (she does custom window treatments) and the equipment to make me all my canvas work. The very first project I want her to make is a cover that will protect all of the brightwork and go from just forward of the mast to just past the aft end of the cockpit.

Curious if you ever produced this canvas - I would be intrigued to see a picture.

Commander 147

06-01-2010, 02:50 PM

Kyle

Not yet, because I'm spending all of the boat dollars on the refit. But I will be sure to post a picture when she does. She is actually thinking of expanding her business into boat canvas work.

Lucky Dawg

06-01-2010, 03:02 PM

I know where she could find some guinea pigs

Commander 147

06-01-2010, 04:38 PM

Do you have a specific project in mind? If so send me a private message and I'll get her involved.

Rico

06-01-2010, 06:49 PM

- Oink, Oink!!!

Or 'groin, groin' as a pig from Guinea would say (in French)...

Lucky Dawg

12-29-2014, 06:02 AM

Stripped my hatch boards. Campanionway brightwork to follow. Boy is a heat gun and a triangle scraper like magic! Had I known, stripping my coamings would have been less arduous! You have to be careful not to scorch the wood, but besides that, it is easy fleasy.

Looking at stain as the lowermost of my hatch boards is significantly lighter than the rest. I'm guessing it was a replacement. Water has collected on the bottom edge and there was a little dry rot to repair - may have happened before in the last 50 years.

With an eye for old Chris Craft style mahogany boats, I always wondered how they get that rich red color out of mahogany. Tempted to use these techniques:

(http://www.vintageraceboatshop.com/Stain-Varnish.htm)

...on my campanionway and hatch boards. I searched and found mentions of filler stain on the first page of this thread - wish I had run across it before finishing my coamings.

YEOWZA!

9429

ebb

12-31-2014, 12:15 PM

And a great site, great fotos of a traditional varnish job... by seven curmudgeons:D
....with a fine modern varnish. That ChrisCraft is a jewel-box, and keeping up with
it is going to take a lot of varnish love and a lot of Clear Gloss Epifanes.*

From the photos, it's difficult to see the difference between the three choices of
filler stain. Color intensity seems to change. Would choose the brightest red under
multiple coats of UV varnish. Have to buy into the Interlux/Petit system... Have
to admit the result is fantastic. Can't imagine keeping up with it on a boat that
lives outdoors!!!
.................................................. .................................................. .......................

Already thinking of painting out LittleGull's mahogany bullwerkian toerails. For me,
yearly varnishes are endless hours in the curse of prep.... for a last lick of gloss.

LeTonkinois Varnish (American Rope & Tar LLC) is the way to go for cruising.
Because it's simpler, imco. It's an all vegetable oil varnish with no volatile solvents,
no thinning required. Doesn't crack or flake. This is a permanent varnish. You
should be able to recoat over the original for as long as you have the boat.....
go to FAQ http://www.letonkinoisvarnish.co.uk/. >'LeTonkinois Varnish'
After you read this, you may be asking: why Epifanes? ...well, maybe drys faster.

The original version of this French rendition of a centuries-old Chinese varnish
is now history. The original 'Classic' version has been superseded by Vernis #1.
later EDIT: Original TONK is still available

Have used Epifanes and LeTonkinois Classic & #1, one on top of the other,
( 'flatten' by 220 sanding between every coat. Tooth is always better.)
They all brush on equally well. All look just as deep after 10 coats. To me.

But in the boat's bosun locker I'll carry a can of LeTonk, (transferred into a thick
plastic jar) some s.carbide waterproof paper, scotchbrite pads, T-shirt rags/filters,
foam and chip brushes, small foam roller. No volatile varnish-specific solvents.

Look up WoodenBoatForum LeTonkinois Update
forum.woodenboat.com/ LeTonkinois Update {best I can do...Forum dates
from 2010} ...read with open mind and be aware of the post dates.

{The volatile solvent to use for (shhhh thinning) and expensive brush cleaning**
is naptha. Generic mineral spirits and paint thinners these days come in a number
of formulas, don't trust them. Why not learn to varnish without thinning??}

Users of LeTonk report problems with added coats beading up...for no reason.
Watch your rags: they may have fabric softener, soap or oil on them - don't use
tack cloths, use a water dampened T-shirt. Wear disposable gloves to keep yer
chickin-lickin fingers off the work. Don't use white or gray stearate/latex coated
sandpapers, they leave wax or weird plastic behind. So far, I trust resin bonded
3M Gold Frecut 216U Al oxide, and 3M Wetordry extra fine 320*** - rather than
Klingspor, or foreign papers that may leave residue.
DO NOT TRUST ANY_ STEARATE SANDPAPER - even upgraded
waterborne coatings Block sand lightly on flats - use a new, stiff, pre-washed
(dish liquid, multi rinse), maroon (lighter colors = smaller grit) scotch-brite pad
on curves and rounds.... lightly: cut, do not burnish. 220 grit,
nothing finer than 320. LeTonk sez: 'stretch it out with long strokes'.
Brush it on better: roll it on thin. Tip with long strokes using Jen foam brushes.

LeTonk likes over 60degrees. Some say warm the can, but imco the work and
the varnish should be the same temp. Gelomat, the flattening agent, which you
add in quantity to LeTonk for a satin finish is formulated with naptha (nobody's
perfect.) LeTonk is made with tung, linseed, and other vegetable oils, no petro's.
It still is, imco, refreshingly low tech. Most users have no problem applying it.
LeTonkinois is a French varnish. Let's forget about that. Read all you can find
on this varnish -- built on a centuries old Vietnamese formula.... Rope&Tar and
Brit sites... it's really the most amazing varnish you or I will ever experience.
One.last thing: you can use Letonk UNDERWATER. Try that with Epifaness!

Cleaning brushes: There is a soap, "The Master's Brush Cleaner & Preserver."
It is said to work on any brush, any paint, any condition.
**Favorite LeTonkinois varnish brush is cleaned by squeezing, wiping it dry of
varnish in rags or paper, then soaking in vegie oil, then swashing the oil away
using Ivory Soap & water.

***Sandpaper: All papers seem to have something added to help keep the grit
from 'corning'. Including 216U. Certain conditions, methods, humidity, heat, have
led workers away from stearate coatings. Manufacturers are cagey about telling
us what 'dri-lube' is on the grit. Sandblaster MSDS suggests it may be something
to do with titanium dioxide. Not a dust you'd want in yer lungs. 3M Sandblaster
synthetic Cubalon abrasive paper is touted to be "ideal for sanding between
coats of paint and varnish". That's pretty specific! I'll check this out right away.....
3M must be responding to the gripes. Be great to have a trustworthy sandpaper.
{EDIT, later post: See Post #125}

.................................................. .................................................. .................
LeTonkinois adds nothing to give its varnish UV protection. The formula evidently
provides a natural resistance to UV damage for the film and the covered material.
Corporate varnishes add UV additives to their mix. Some diffuse light and heat
and reflect some UV away. Another will harden the outermost mil-surface to keep
its reflective gloss. Another prevents organic ingredients from oxidizing and
getting moldy, thereby stabilizing layers - probably plenty more chem-tweeks...

A comparison test by a responsible third party would help settle many claims.
One that includes long term exposure, examination of wood surfaces and fading.
AND settle, once & for all, the argument whether epoxy sealer is really necessary!
.................................................. .................................................. ..................

*Epifanes Clear Gloss: 25-50% naptha. / 2.5% xylene. / 2.5% 2-butanone oxime.
/ 2.5% mixture of branched & linear C7-C9 alkyl 3-(3-(2H-benzotriazol-2-yl-5-
(1, 1-dimethyl-ethyl)-4-hydroxyphenyl propionates. / 2.5% 4-tert-butyphenol.
/ 2.5% cobalt bis (2-ethylhexanoate). Which means there is between 37.5%
and 62.5% remaining phenolic resins and non-synthetic wood or seed oils......
Not including user app volatiles, etc.

.....Just saying. Don't mean to rub it in.:D

Lucky Dawg

01-02-2015, 05:57 PM

I guess my "ah-ha" was on the filler stain underneath. My "blonde" mahogany coamings look great, but natural or not, I like the sumptuous color of that rubbed Chris Craft red mahogany stained color in the photo above.
3 years on, my coamings still look great with Epifanes. The trim pieces at the top of the cockpit benches are worn off where you'd expect wear. My hatch track brightwork is in need of a recoat not sure what might be different for those pieces to be looking thinner and in need of refinishing. I just yanked off and stripped my whole companionway to go with the previously mentioned hatch boards - I didn't refinish any of those in 2011 with everything else. Those parts are all stripped, bleached, and ready for final sanding and finishing.
I'd be curious to test your Le Tonkinois stuff Ebb.

ebb

01-04-2015, 10:52 AM

Never stained outdoor wood, so this is from reading....and FOR discussion.

The stain those guys used is v e r r r y red. Interesting how it mellowed out with
multi-coats of UV varnish. Think part of the intensity of what we see in the finish is
that hot color coming through. J.E.Moser waterborne aniline dye stains (no filler)
available from Woodworkers Supply 'have a good rep for lasting'. There are no
transparent stains guaranteed not to fade. Moser's specific dyes for mahogany are
all antiqueing stains, but their dark red is fairly bright, and could be redded-up
even more with specific color powders to come close to the ChrisCraft red mahogany.
Waterclear fillers are here. (AquaCoat is one - don't know if it is OK out of
doors, would ask their tech. But under 10 coats of UV varnish, what can happen?)

Suppose, after final sanding prep, water stain is washed on, then the clear filler is
pressed in with a green plastic spat, then lightly leveled with a stiff plastic 'credit-
card'. When smooth, we want to seal the wood. LeTonk would have us apply a
coat or three of un-thinned.* But Epifanes - not sure here - its quantity of solvents
may attack the filler (but hopefully not, imco, the waterborne stain). Uncertain
as to the Epifanes schedule, but a 'sanding sealer' is likely necessary, before varnish.

Still think that sealing wood with epoxy is the best way to protect the wood from
moisture invasion. May do this under LeTonk, even tho they say it's not necessary.
When delving into LeTonk history, the varnish seems to go over literally anything,
anywhere - in or out of the water.

It is very possible to fill the grain using almost water clear epoxy. The problem is
that sanding might go thru the stain. Will create a blotchy look if that happens.
(Taking epoxy off, back to wood, is hardly an option. If it's part of loving varnish,
ie to take it back to wood after the varnish gets tired, you can't seal with epoxy.)
So more built-up coats of epoxy to get an absolutely smooth filled grain surface
will be necessary. Laminating epoxy is not a self-flattening coating. That's why
I've never stained first. Usually, sealing is a thinned coat, then one regular coat.
The wood then stands up for itself. Never been a cheerful varnisher.

Of course, layers of UV varnish supposedly protect the wood surface underneath,
but I'm sure sun's rays will fade the wood where it is more exposed to the light.
So if a boat is parked 'one way' mostly in the marina, the mostly will show up.
The job will two tone after awhile, shadowed surfaces stay dark. Baked will fade.
Don't believe there is a stain that stands up to exposure, and that's why its not
used, normally, on boats. Everything fades in the sun, including pigmented paint!

*When I think of it, laying on the first coat(s) UNTHINNED, goes against every
thing I've learnt about how-to varnish. Le Tonkinois literature says the coating
penetrates just fine. They recommend no thinning, EVER.
In a way this old time varnish is revolutionary. As to having to wood down
sometime in the future (because you didn't maintain the finish), no epoxy sealer
(which LeTonk doesn't recommend anyway) is the easy, simple, uncomplicated,
best thing to do for the life of the mahogany! N'est-ce pas?
.................................................. .................................................. ...................
Kyle, Varnishing is an art form. Have to have knack for it. And a forgiving eye.;)
.................................................. .................................................. ...................

"A man is rich in proportion to the things he can afford to let alone." Thoreau

sinbin

01-08-2015, 10:37 PM

I had a painting business for 36 years. For exterior bare wood it was "stain, seal, and varnish", using oil base products, generally following the instructions on the can. For fillers, we used oil putty which we tinted to match, after the sealer coat and before the finish. You can buy colored putty at OSH. We also used colored caulk at the joints and seams as needed. Sherwin Williams has a sanding sealer in quarts. By the time I got "Sinbin", it's wood finish had been aborted, so I resorted to a tinted varnish glaze over the old polyurethane finish which looks good from across the harbor. I have had best results with a coat of Man O'War Semi Gloss Spar Varnish every six months, after a scratch sanding with 120 grit. Best to stay away from polyurethane, as it's almost impossible to sand. I have never "wooded" my teak in 20 years. The last owner sanded away the bungs. Hope this saves you some time and money.

Lucky Dawg

01-09-2015, 05:56 AM

Doing some research yesterday... Took my prepped hatch boards to my friend Jamie at Van's Refinishing here locally. Good guy, nice furniture finishing and restoration work. He repaired my coamings back when I restored the deck. He suggested stain, paste filler, varnish.

Then I saw this video from the Wood Whisperer http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/coloring-blotchy-woods/?as=blotchy&mode=posts&ap=1 who suggests shellac, gel stain, ...Shellac comparison / demo & then Minwax vs gel stain is the subject of the video.

Watched another helpful vid series on applying paste filler to mahogany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfm0nLXJ7Q

I suspect 100 videos, 100 opinions.

Decisions, decisions. Glad I'm not in a hurry.

ebb

01-09-2015, 08:33 AM

Here's a Florida based pro varnisher who works in humidity and heat.
Since most varnishing anywhere will be attempted at better weather moments,
Vicente Williams has some very interesting tricks to reveal...
google Varnish Teak
http://varnishteak.blogspot.com

He mentions, but doesn't quote, Rebecca Wittman, who wrote the book on the subject.
Doesn't need to, actually.

He prefers to work outdoors.

My caution is to professionally respect the volatile solvents
that are part & parcel of traditional corporate varnish products we have accepted into our life.

Thinners, reducers, driers, de-greasers can shorten your varnish days
- and bestow upon you, not only lasting gloss,
but quality of living problems.

There are 4 blogs in this collection, all interesting!

sinbin

01-09-2015, 08:36 AM

I like your furniture man's suggestions. Yours will look like a piece of furniture, while mine looks like a varnished garage door. Watch out for shellac. It's an interior product, sometimes used to seal stain, but tricky.

sinbin

01-09-2015, 08:55 AM

Regarding the article referred by Ebb: I concur up to the point of using Cetol gloss over spar varnish, which I've never done. Having done this for a living, I can only recommend the "kiss it" method: first coat stain, second coat sanding sealer for high build, and then on to spar varnish, as many coats as your masochism can tolerate. The man's advice about thinning was right on. "Sinbin" gets a thinned coat of varnish every 6 months.

ebb

01-22-2015, 12:41 PM

Put it to 3M in an email: What product can we use that will leave NOTHING behind
on the sanded surface...specifically when sanding between varnish coats.
My question to them mentioned stearate, latex and other coating added to the
paper surface over the grit that is meant to provide anti-clogging.

Here is the prompt answer from JohnLyman
3M Customer Contact Center
Product and Application Support
Industrial Business 800-285-3215 x 58

"We would suggest our wet or dry products 413Q or 431Q for your application.
413Q has an A weight paper backing and is available in grades 220-600.
431 has a C weight backing and is available in grades *60-180.

413Q....Use wet with water or dry. Stays flexible and cuts fast
............Use for sanding old finishes, fine featheredging, surface sanding
or last final sanding step before priming. UPC 051144-02000 to 02007.

431Q....Silicone Carbide. Can be run wet or dry. Heavy duty for increased durability.
............Use wet to reduce clogging and extend abrasive life.
............Composite, metalworking, **MRO, paint preparation.
............UPC 051144-02015 = 150Cwt// -02016 = 120Cwt// -02017 = 180Cwt//
-02018 = 80Cwt...."
*60Cwt does not appear here on his spread. (which I have condensed a bit)
**MRO = Maintenance, Repair & Overhaul.
These BLACK papers are 9x11 - and are also known as Tri-M-ite. (wud-U-say?)

This ends this 3M Product Support email... & THIS LEAVES OUT ALL
of the 3M Gold finishing papers (I've been using) for varnish work.

Go with silicone carbide between coats to insure there is no coating on the grit
to contaminate the surface you are toothing.

Not all silicon carbide papers are stearate free... as this 3M product seems to be.
3M also sells GREY (426U) open coat stearate coated s.carbide paper.
Sold to use for general sanding including paint & VARNISH. Do not use this paper.

3M 413Q/431Q are closed coat. This means there are no gaps, however minimal,
between the grits. This will not become a problem mounted on a hard rubber block.
But open coat, when sanding by hand with a folded piece, for instance, can scratch
the surface unevenly. Non-coated closed coat is going to clog or corn...but so will
open coat if that's what's happening with the varnish. Try to decorn the grit:
Compressed air, if you have it, new brass or stainless wire brushes, and dental pick
for stubborn flakes. Cleaning with a rubber belt cleaner, I assume none of the rubber
crumbles transfer to the surface being sanded. 'Credit card' corners are useful, too.

Some varnishers wet sand between coats. Never have - but may try it. Some say
wet sanding not yet 100% cured varnish is possible. Wet sanding makes no dust.
.................................................. .................................................. ........................

For those who want to seal their wood with epoxy, and want to get a head start on
grain filling using epoxy...if you can get the coating to lay down flat, and you have
enough epoxy on the surface, you can wet sand the seal coat and get a huge start on
the seemingly endless coats you need to fill the grain from telegraphing. However,
you can't sand through to wood when wet sanding. The slurry is bound to blotch raw
wood. It'll probably stain & show thru, no matter what you do to make it disappear.
Avoiding hard work, I'm 'content' with two coats and dry sanding. Varnish to level.
A somewhat esoteric woodworker's tool will be perfect here for cutting the tops off
hardened dust specks and dribbles. Steel cabinet scraper. Chesapeake Light Craft.
www.clcboats.com
You guys who insist on using beta epoxies from WetsSystem that amine blush, I
would first wash it off only with warm water and dish detergent - before wet sanding.

CPES from Smith&Co has been known to blush. Try using the fast hardner. Don't
believe CPES penetrates any deeper than slightly xylene-thinned laminating epoxy***.
Don't use CPES. But if you do, wash it before coating with another epoxy or varnish.
***100% solids (no solvents in formula) two part 2x1 laminating (structural) epoxy.
.................................................. .................................................. ........................
TEST: Coamings will be finished on all six sides, so there is plenty of hidden space to
perform this famous test to see if your varnish coat(s) is sticking to the previous one.
Select an area where a small 3/4"x3/4" square can be cross-hatched into the varnish
(after it has completely dried) with a utility knife. Keep cuts close, about 1/16" apart.
Take a piece of your stickiest tape and burnish it with a screwdriver handle onto the
damage you just created. When you pull it off with a quick tug...you don't want to
see anything attached to the tape. Houston, we have a problem here!
This reminder comes from http://www.ronbryze.com/sanding/sandpaper_info.htm
where you will find his basic intro into the gritty mystery of types and numbers.....
How-to-use tips are very hard to find. Probably because everybody hates sanding!

Feedback on this silicon carbide paper trick for varnishing is much appreciated!

sinbin

01-22-2015, 03:14 PM

Wet or dry sandpaper 150 to 180 grit for varnish sanding sealer will suffice. As I understand it, the ancient Chinese used to do their lacquering out at sea to get away from the dust. Next best thing to a spray booth, I guess. Best results when spar varnishing by hand can be acheived by keeping the varnished surfaces as vertical as possible, keeping a vacuum handy, working on a wind free day, etc.
OOO steel wool is another way to go for abrasion. You might consider wiping with a tack rag just before the next coat. Sanding into the wood will screw everything up, that's why we use sanding sealer for its high build. Semi gloss varnish will serve to hide a lot of sins on a fifty year old surface and also will last longer than the gloss due to the inclusion of flatting agents.
Finally, when you're ready to throw up your hands, consider rubbing it out after it's dry with a square or three of the brown masking paper- not the green stuff, as it has a wax coating.
Whew! Time for a beer.

ebb

01-23-2015, 11:07 AM

.................................................. .................................................. ...................................
Kind of a question here. Finally took the time to watch LuckyDawg's second blue line,
a three part video presentation from The Master's Touch, Furniture Repair.net. Sorry
to miss the presenter's name...
From an antique furniture point of view, where our boats certainly fit, his method
will work, I think, for a restoration. Probably taking the old varnish off down (mostly)
to the wood. One problem I have is that shellac and lacquer are not liquids usual to
refurbishing the exterior woods of an Ariel or Commander. So substituting flexible
exterior varnishes in the system may take some adjustment of sealers and fillers(?)

And I wonder what that is? I think a brilliant waterborne dye stain, is the way to go
on raw wood. This will soak in, so slight sanding accidents will be forgiven. What
product, don't know. But on mahogany, imco, I will choose a bright 'mahogany' red
like the Interlux stain/filler color shown on the Varnish Lovers site.

Grain next? If we are going to a petro system, then the brown paste filler method is OK.
There is certainly a fine demo of how to apply the stuff in the videos. The dark pigment,
can be argued, will help with UV protection. I have a problem with it: Too bloody dark.
Don't want the grain dark. My inclination is to go with a clear gel filler.* Haven't
experience with that. Be great to see a demo. And a technical data sheet.

However, imco, the wood must be sealed FIRST, on top of the dye. With the dark
filler, sealer will probably be a petroleum product. Something the filler will be cozy with.
It is not clear to me if the filler 'coat' after sanding has to be sealed, as well. Or do we go
straight to varnish. And the varnish, with this system, will be Epifanes, or a solvent based
petroleum varnish to be completely copacetic. I've used Epifanes, and like the result.

But.... I am swearing off these varnishes and paints that require proprietary solvents to
apply properly. Have to go with the other stuff.

So where does sealing with (100% solids, no solvent) epoxy fit in? (Can't over oil base.)
Can use a solvent thinned coat over a custom mix of J.E.Moser waterborne dye/stain.
Usually add a second epoxy coat unthinned, let it sit, but rub it off with cloth rags
before it sets up. 3rd coat possible, for extra microns, it's necessary to lightly sand 220.
{**Now, wondering if waterborne AquaCoat paste can, at this point, be
applied on top of the epoxy which would avoid having to flatten a hard all epoxy filled
surface.} Then move to whatever varnish system blows yer skirt up.
{ Epifanes is also applied over waterborne coatings and epoxy sealer. without problem.}
.................................................. .................................................. ....................................
*AquaCoat waterborne clear gel filler. Talked with the tech who has not had this
question before. There is nothing in the MSDS that suggests epoxy won't stick to
AquaCoat. Product cozys perfectly with next step oil varnish. My problem is making sure
a 100% solids laminating epoxy, as a sealer, sticks to the AquaCoat filler. It is applied
just as the brown poop on the Furniture video, with final 'credit card' scraping for absolute
flatness. Surface also has to be toothed, but dyed wood cannot be scoured, except
perhaps, VERY slightly. It's critical that the epoxy sealer bonds to the surface.......
Better Way:
**How about reversing the process: fill the grain after the epoxy sealer...AquaCoat video
demonstrates a 3 coat filling process with very little sanding after the third coat.
Steps from bare wood: Dye/stain - epoxy thin coat - second coat strate epoxy, rubbed off
- block sand - 3 coats of AquaCoat filler - block sand (filler applied on the sealer means
there are a couple extra epoxy microns insurance that sanding won't break thru to raw
wood.) Dry - then go to varnish with fewer layers to finish. I'll certainly do a test...

Most important coats on mahogany is certainly that final celebratory gloss coat, but the
first sealer coat - the tie coat in my interpretation - on the bare dyed wood is the key.
click videos http://aquacoat.com/
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................
Sorry, don't mean to appear pushy - but when looking for choices....
I always seem to go against the grain.:o

sinbin

01-23-2015, 12:38 PM

Ebb: I haven't watched the video, but here is some info based on my experience. Oil based dye stains are for interior use and will fade in sunlight. You might want to check the water borne variety. I've stayed away from the water borne products due to being an old dog, but they may require a sealer I'm not familiar with. Paste wood filler is an oil base product used to fill porous grains e.g. oak floors and furniture. It used to come in light and dark. I haven't seen it in use for years, but I believe it's applied first and sanded into the new wood (check with a furniture guy on that one). Oil based wood conditioner is used to seal fir and pine prior to staining to get rid of dark blotches when the oil based stain is applied. It will have the effect of lightening the stain when applied. I don't think it's necessary for teak, but I'm not sure. Epiphanes is a fine product. As I remember it is oil based (check the label). Shellac and lacquer are interior products.
Here is a finish schedule for new shaped and sanded wood: 1) (Maybe) paste wood filler and sand. 2) (Maybe) Wood Conditioner 3) Exterior stain. Check with Kelly Moore. Cabot's Semi Transparent Stain should get you the look you want. 4) Sanding Sealer from Sherwin Williams - an interior product but it works for our purposes. Sand the sealer, not the wood. Now apply Crawfords oil putty tinted to match for minor voids, etc. 5) Finish varnish.
I'm not sure if epoxy can be sanded, that's why I go with Sanding Sealer.
Check with the boss or the sales rep at KM re water borne products and compatability. Test your system on another piece wood, read the instructions on the label, and give it hell!

ebb

01-23-2015, 12:56 PM

My radical Paleo diet requires I raise a goblet of Chardonnay rather than a good ale
to you, Captain!:D

sinbin

01-23-2015, 05:38 PM

Hope it works out for you, and don't forget - George You Know Who guarantees it.

ebb

01-26-2015, 02:46 PM

Have Honduras for the coamings, want them done up in an oil varnish, enhanced
with a glow like one of those fabulous fiery red mahogany Interlux filler/stains the
Varnish-Love Club guys use. Sworn off petro now - no more volatile chemicals. The
mahogany has myriad grain lines to fill. Will not be using the dirty brown oil grain filler
- seen on the Furniture Masters site, way too gloomy for my taste - anyway.

Not as easy: AquaCoat waterborne clear gel filler on a hot dye may be the answer.
It's not an exterior product...but onsite photos show some woodworkers use it on
outdoor furniture projects. Doesn't prove anything - unless it's been there ten years.

There is no transparent dye/stain that will not fade in sunlight. Some of the best
metallic waterborne aniline dyes last longer than others, but still must consider it
'interior'. Sunlight through a window will fade and degrade any organic object inside
a room. Varnished mahogany on the water is pretty ridiculous anyway, thinking
about it. Never saw no outdoor grand piano....or varnished ChrisCraft swinging
on a mooring. We do it anyway - do it for the WOW! - if nothing else, ten frickin
coats will delay the mahogany from bleaching blond . Maybe...one more season.

Expect this new clear filler will do fine. Am also guinea pig for a 100% LeTonkinois
varnish job, which has no added material to make it more resistant to UV. Am
persuaded that waterproofing the coamings is the most important first step.
Epoxy encapsulation stays healthy under varnish as long as it's there to protect it
from UV. Waterproofing is the best protection we have for ALL exposed wood.
Clear coats: damned if you do, damned if you don't. "Time for another coat, McDuff!"

The 'tech' I spoke with second time, turns out he is proprietor of AquaCoat....Brian.
Cool! Good guy... fending off this curmudgeon. Ordered a couple qts of AquaCoat
filler, but have to wait until the weather gets above freezing for it to ship.
Want to play around with his red mahogany waterborne dye. He says the dye is the
best metallic aniline - we know waterborne dyes penetrate deeper than all others,
including alcohol. Couple qts UPS. Possible to add J.E.Moser powder to kick the color...
I asked.

Like this: After final sanding, want to dye the bare mahogany first, before anything
else. Asked what he thought, if I then seal with 2 coats of clear laminating epoxy?
{Lightly sand - then fill the remaining grain with AquaCoat clear filler. Sand again
for tooth to varnish....thinking that there'll be a few extra microns of separation
from the dyed wood thanks to the epoxy coats....for cautious sanding.}

Added, "Imagine that minor sanding glitches of exposed bare wood could be toucht
up easily by passing a damp stain rag over the surface. Rub it dry, nobody notices."
Brian didn't like the idea because it can create weirdness wherever it gets into pores.
( he didn't use the word 'weirdness') But if a retouch is noticed in a particularly clear
bright finish, it'll be a....disaster. {But I'm thinking, tops of tiny peaks, not lakes.}
This method assumes that in sync with water dye, epoxy will bond to bare wood.

He suggested a variation: after staining is completed, fill the grain with AquaCoat.
Filler is 'credit carded', flat as possible, in two or three coats, with the least amount
of sanding necessary. {Very hard to estimate that - and attaining a flat surface is
absolutely necessary for a fine finish. So, the step has to be included in the system.
The dyed wood surface is right there under, but not under, the filler. Scarey.
Even if the prep is finessed by an artist, there'd be hardly anything to sand...even
lightly. The surface legitimately needs to be prepared for the next step... Epoxy.}

BUT, more importantly, if epoxy sealer here is put on top of a 'lesser' coating,
it's unable to bond to bare wood. Main purpose of epoxy is structural, not cosmetic.

well, that's my argument, and it may have given Brian a moment to agree with the
first method. But he can't give his 'blessing', that's my hook. Have to experiment.
Problem with our coamings is that they are NOT furniture. Like hand rails, rub rails,
even the companionway trim and drop boards... they have work to do, & perform.
.................................................. .................................................. ..............................
"How long will Epoxy survive sunlight" http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm
Very well done study comparing 6 epoxies, by Vaclav Stejskal

............Anybody else think they might go the waterborne route??.............
'Traditional' varnish coating. No waterborne varnish No Bristol No polyurethane No
Cetol. (Clear coatings all burn in sun UV. Some get ugly - become a PITA to remove
or maintain. Ergo: oil varnish is not nice - except to look at - but more forgiving.)
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

sinbin

01-26-2015, 03:08 PM

This is getting to be pretty exotic and out of my limited realm of knowledge. You might try to find a wood filler that accepts stain.

ebb

01-29-2015, 12:08 PM

Haven't tried it.
Dye supplier, J.E.Moser, has a clear paste wood filler that won't shrink & is easily sanded.
What makes a paste filler easily sanded? Let's check out its Exotic Content:

MSDS
"Section II. Hazardous Ingredients
J.E.Moserr's Grain-Fil Clear Paste Wood Filler

Acrylic Resins - *CAS#: Proprietary
Urethane Polymers - CAS#: Proprietary
Water - CAS#: 7732-18-5
Propoxy Propoxy Butanol - CAS#: 29911-28-2
Synthetic Amorphous Silica - CAS# 63231-67-4
**Polyethermodifieddimethylpolysiloxa - CAS#: Proprietary
Propylene Glycol - CAS#: 57-55-6"

This list is ONLY the Hazardous Ingredients , including evidently: Water - CAS#: 7732-18-5

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
"May be tinted with water based dyes and pigments."
Assume that means mixed into the paste, not after cure.
"Compatible with oil or water based stains and finishes."
Except for the frankenstein ingredients, sounds like neat stuff.
Doesn't ship to California and Oregon. http://woodworker.com/grain-fil-mssu-922-828.asp
We don't need no hazardous water 'round heah!
.................................................. .................................................. .........................................
* CAS Chemical Abstracts Service. a chemical data base of the ACS.
Probably have to be a member.
Imagine looking up one of those composite numbers, and being able to understand what it said.
.................................................. .................................................. .........................................
**Polyether, a silicone/urethane hybrid, known as the 'other choice' of 4 synthetic tube
rubbers available from your local marine emporium. Silicone, p.urethane, p.sulfide, p.ether.
The rest of the germanic creation, after 'modified', is the long word for PDMS silicone grease.
Whatzit doing in grain filler? {Argg-g! (cascass... Ca KASSs)... something in my throat.:p}
Sand this Proprietary filler and spread silicone all over the work...don't think so!
.................................................. .................................................. ........................................
Thread: Silicone is truly evil. - Pearson Ariel
www.pearsonariel.org > Forum > Ariel Association > Technical

This hazardous ingredient (J.E.Moser is right about that!), 'PDMS, is an optically clear, non-toxic,
non--flammable, inert polymer otherwise known as silicone oil or grease.' wiki
EXOTIC FASTFOOD
Scrambled eggs at McDonaalds are made with eggs and an 'egg-blend' that incudes PDMS. It's
also in the oil that browns Chicken McNuggets & French fries, where it acts as an anti-frothing
agent. It's the sil in SillyPutty. Found in 1000s of shampoos, shaving cremes, and beauty products.
It's everywhere, rubber gaskets, roofing caulks, sealants, (and it's the evil oil in your gelcoat.) wiki

What mental process decides it's good to EAT THIS CHEMICAL? What makes it edible?
Where is it written that this synthetic oil is not toxic to the human digestive track and liver?
Who said OK to this? .... our pals: The American Chemical Society, and McUSFDA.
.................................................. .................................................. .......................................
not going to order it today. Or a McPolymer
This grain filler, rather innocuous, is a waterborne non-flammable material packaged in a can.
Why illegal in California? A couple alcohols, couple resins, water, couple edible chemical oils:
silicon & propylene glycol, a little fumed silica to make things jello. What's not to like?

sinbin

02-01-2015, 01:13 PM

That's pretty esoteric stuff. You might consider performing the job in Vegas.

ebb

02-02-2015, 08:35 AM

Varnishing is a bit of a crapshoot.
The house (the manufacturers) have the edge.
So when you're laying down your luster on the coamings, in a way you're betting that the
outcome will be in your favor.
A fabulous varnish job attempts to perpetuate the myth that you're smart - and can afford
the luxury of time and money it takes to keep the camouflage perfect and envious.
Luck, of course, has nothing to do with it.
It's all in how you played the varnish game.

If we're looking for entertainment, we could take in the casino's Penn and Teller magic act.

Can see an opening knife throwing performance by The Whistleblowers whose Chemcorp,
CIA, and Federal Public Health Official targets are standing on stage in revolving doors.
The participants appear to be dressed in wet rubber suits, but in reality each is covered,
head to toe, in crystal clear, non-toxic, non-flammable, inert PDMS grease.....
Which gives them an edge.
Obviously it's an illusion.:rolleyes:

sinbin

02-02-2015, 05:23 PM

You certainly are "waxing" poetic about this. Here's advice from my first boss on my first job: "Dip it deep and swing it wide". Now that I do more sailing, it's the Pilsner Urquells that make my varnish look great.

ebb

02-04-2015, 12:12 PM

Repeats aren't welcome in polite company...sorry!

ebb

02-04-2015, 12:13 PM

It's a matter of taste. Too bad that on a national scale disputes can't be settled over a
glass of brew. Sinbad, you'll have the bottom fermented, hopped 4.4 Czech Pilsner - served
in a chilled glass. I druther quaff from a wine goblet a dark top fermented Scotch ale with
low, or no hops, and a bang double yours at 8 or 9%.
We agree on one thing: little foam. I'm unable to drink grain anymore. You should feel
sorry for me. Thanks! But I did have a meal once at a white tablecloth restaurant, where
the only beer on the menu was an ice cold foreign Pilsner in a short bottle. A bit too
carbonated for my nose.... wasn't bad, wasn't bad at all. Actually had some taste!

HOW TO VARNISH
May have mentioned the following before: I've tried to locate the article, which appeared
of all places in National Fisherman, two or three decades ago! The article was headlined
something about this old pro east coast varnisher who breaks all the rules when it comes
to getting it on the wood. Photo showed him varnishing a gridiron wide mahogany stern,
or was it yellow pine, on a classic wooden lobster boat...Lost Claws - Nova Scotia (maybe).
Had him saying something a lot like your old boss.

Maybe he was your old boss! (Of course,I can't remember the quote)...Something like....
Just get it on any way it goes, don't matter. Don't worry about the foam, just slap it on.
Maybe thinned the first coat, maybe didn't...Then, stretch it out with your long strokes....

Can't add any more here without making something up.... but it obviously impressed me
that this pro got the coating on as quickly as possible....flattened it out....brushed it out
wide.....no BS....no mystery.
'Swing with it.' Rhythm has a lot to do with it.

Haven't done really any wide vertical surfaces. Recently heard that your last stokes
should be vertical. Horizontal leaves you open to sags - the gods don't forgive sags!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Later edit, 1/29/2017. ONLY ONE VARNISH RULES THEM ALL:

LE TONKINOIS.

WARN YOU! THIS PROCESS IS SO SIMPLE YOU'LL LIKE VARNISHING AGAIN. TONK
IS APPLIED 'OUT OF THE CAN' WITH NO THINNING ALLOWED. ROLL IT ON. TIP IT
OUT WITH FOAM. NO BRUSH CLEANING OR STORING. NO PETROLEUM. DECANT
INTO THE AMAZING STOP LOSS BAG. ALL VARNISHING PROBLEMS GONE!!!

What more do you want? No thinning solvent, no adding solvent. I've gotten a grand
piano finish using this "oil" that doesn't call itself a varnish. Ebb's method is to use
EpifanesMOLTOPREN micro-foam 4" rollers* (on a wire frame) and Jenny's** for
tipping (without wetting the foam) This means: no thinning allowed - no brush cleaning
and no solvents connected with that. No TOXIC products are used with this varnish.
220 aluminum grit sandpaper is not for sanding, but to lightly cut mini mountains off
(no dust making) -- then a rubdown with 3M maroon 7447 nylon pad . Dull surface.
Specifically this nylon pad only, because it has no added oil, wax or silicone product.

Varnish rolls on thin and even, without sagging, without curtains. With a nice mild
linseed aroma. LeTonk says epoxy primer not necessary. Without filling surface it'll
take 8-9 applications to create a mirror finish.
Repairs or recoat is normal, coating flattens and smoothes, repairs disappear.

Use a Wooster Pelican Pail*** that has liners and allows one handed roller loading
while rolling the coating, with the other. Magic.

Using StopLossBags (Duckworths), decanting Vernise#1**** out of its square can into
a clear plastic bag, that you squeeze air out to preserve the coating from skinover. It's
probably better, each opening of the varnish container, to pour what you intend to use
thru a cone filter. Job remains get saved. Bad idea. Because the varnish ends up with
these transparent jelly-globs, that must be strained out. Really shouldn't save air
exposed varnish from the pail, unless you're a cheapskate like me.

*SMS Distributors, http://www.smsdistributors.com/ {seems to be a one man
curmudgeon operation - you have to squeeze the order phone number out of him!! }
**JEN is a brand of wedge-tipped foam brush that has wood handles. Simply the best.
***Home Depot, Pelican imco is one of the best boat painting tools of all time!!
****American Rope and Tar, www.tarsmell.com/ {mom & pop)

DANCE OF THE GLOSSEER
As for varnishing wide surfaces: recently tonked Lit'lgull's new wide coamings, about
10x72 inches. 5 square feet... I'm used to wetting out short sections and tipping quickly,
then another short to tip into a wet edge. Multiple stop-n-goes. Did one side flat on the
bench and then the other side hanging from a frame. So that's 4 sides times 8, which is
32 sides. 160 sq ft!. Have to wait 24hrs each coat, before a lite prep.
Discovered something amazing for this stop & go varnisher:

Just rolled whole sides, and tipped end to end 4-5-6 times. drawing the wedge-tipped
foam with the grain whether flat or hanging vertically. Only once got curtains... knew
why and didn't make it happen again. The rollers (above) are made for this stuff, the
micro-foam fills up and releases evenly over the whole surface. Takes maybe a minute
and a half to roll a side!! Hardest part is tipping, walking forth and back, along the
coaming, trying to just touch not pull the varnish.
Fastest, nicest, most pleasant varnishing I've ever done!

CHEERS ! ! !